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Boltgun remowal = Support class doesn't mean "tactical flexibility"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Faeruin, Mar 26, 2017.

  1. MF DOOM MF_DOOM Steam Early Access

    An unmodded boltor is fine enough. You want them to remain offensive supports but not have them overshadow a normal offensive unit or at least not make them as deadly as one. Taking it away completely though would be pretty fucked because the problem is that the other supports don't really have much of an offensive side so others see it as op even if it makes sense.
  2. PurpleHaze PrplHze Steam Early Access

    Bolter aint even your biggest problem, if a Apothocary would use just pistol and Poison Narc, get just as many kills. I've used this meta more then once and done really well. Aliments are the king meta atm, and most people dont even try to use that on LSM side. Nor do we have alot of Aliment weapons. Go, figure. but cause the bolter is the widest range of utilities you just target it. Just saying, if bolter was that good...LSM wouldnt have the biggest losing record. Yall just have to pick something to gripe about. How about those Stormbolters,..or Ork shoota's...same deal. Or that the Sorc has a Aoe spell, aliment spell...just as much utlities, if not better then the dreaded bolter. Pick another topic guys, this ones been beat to death.
    Alb likes this.
  3. Unbiased Unbias3d Steam Early Access

    The way I see it, there are 2 primary types of healers in video games. Theres the killer who can also heal, and the healer who can also kill. The difference being, obviously, which one of those things comes first. I think the apothecary falls heavily in the former category, as all of his heals and buffs are most effective when applied immediately before or after a combat. In an active battle, running around trying to vial people can make you more of a liability than an asset. Not to mention apoths are almost as high priority of targets as elites, if not more so. The painboy, by design, falls into the same category as the apoth, but is a bit limited when compared due to only having pistols and having inarguably worse heals and buffs available. His melee is better in theory, but in the current meta it's not really worth mentioning. Sorcs and warlocks by the current design fall into the "healers who can kill" side, but due to various factors the "killy" part of that is a bit underwhelming.

    Now from a lore perspective, none of the healers are actually dedicated healers, save perhaps the painboy, ironically. The apoths primary job is the recovery of geneseed more than anything else (the primary design feature of narthecium), and the warlock and sorc are mainly focused on raining down warp fuckery on their foes. If you take this into account, EC gets it a little ass backwards, with the casters feeling particularly lore inadequate.
  4. Russo10 Steam Early Access

    Didn't see anyone else clear up your confusion. The OP was indeed making a post about removing it from all apoths, however the thread they referenced where majority voted to remove the bolters wasn't about all apoths, that vote was exclusively about wolf priest having a bolter which makes it irrelevant in regards to apoths as a whole.

    Wait, now I'm the one that's confused, are you opposed or not? (Not calling you out, just wanting to know cause I am planning my own thread about balancing the apoth in a fair way instead of biased nerfing and people's views on WP bolter are important for one of my suggestions).
  5. Rakshasa Rakshasa Recruit

    People who think that Apothecaries with Bolters are balanced with the support role don't understand the term "trade-off". I see way more Apothecaries in LSM matches then any other support character of another faction. Playing a support that can do nearly everything else a Tactical class can do plus heal seems like a no brainer.

    The other factions supports have to "trade-off" that tactical functionality in order to heal. This creates a system where team members of other factions are dependent on one another to accomplish goals. A "trade-off" that doesn't exist for LSM Apothecaries.

    Asymmetry cannot mean that one faction (LSM) gets all the best stuff. That isn't Balance.
  6. Unbiased Unbias3d Steam Early Access

    I dunno. Considering LSM's average winrate, I'd say they actually got the worse side of that deal.
  7. Catnium Catnium Well-Known Member

    Instead of nerfing 1 class i suggest you buff the ranged capabilities of the other classes
    Eldar and Chaos have ranged spells they could simply buff them.
    Give pain boys access to actual mods for his poison gun to give it more dakka or something
    Adjust his doc bomb's hp .
    Make orks immune to poison doc bomb. One can assume he inoculated the troops before hand or he used a fungus strain that his fellow orks are immune to to create the poison.

    Stuff like that.

    And when you sit down and think about it .. Chaos and Eldar have ranged healing on their supports .. LSM have ranged damage on their support.
    And orks are EC's red headed stepchild with their supports because orks are naturally very tanky to begin with.
    So it might all just be somewhat balanced after all.
    Just adjust the numbers to fine tune it imo.

    Because in the past they fine tuned other numbers, lowered ttk , lowered stats etc . and this caused other systems within the game to get out of balance.
    Thanks to the asymmetrical balance in EC you can't do things like lower TTK without affecting supports across the board as well. especially when one has a ranged weapon and you just buffed all ranged weaponry a few patches ago.
    RAGE_GTX and 0strum like this.
  8. WarlordKnight Recruit

    I disagree. Other than orks they are the worst healer, while chaos and eldar run around acting like its tf2 with uber charge.
  9. PurpleHaze PrplHze Steam Early Access

    So you copy/paste that from the other 10k posts. Not even the case at all, and the apothocary is about the worst support, ork pain boys 3nd, Warlock 2nd and Sorc the Best Atm. We're meant to Buff before a fight and heal after the fight, yet still be a asset to a push. His reduced armor and lack of free Lp to spend on gear is the off-set to the power of a tac which has the shear frontal force. Your another new guy getting killed by bolters cause its a main weapon for all LSM, our other guns are niche use. Beacon just dont compaire to the ranged heal on a Melee driven char,..allows for a constant 2man meta thats hard to counter. And the reason Chaos and Eldar Support trumps. So yet again, go necro some other post that aint been beat to death.
  10. Ugh, i have to politely disagree.

    Apothecarys can buff good before the fight, throw Healing-Nades in the middle of a fight (Especially Medicae gives a sickly good HoT effect during Combat), and instantly pick up peple after the fight. And during the fight, they can support their Attackers with a Bolter of their own. The Apothecary is the best support at the moment. Apo -> Sorc/Warlock -> Painboy

    Sorcs can't buff before the fight, can heal really well during the fight, and pick up people after the fight just as well, but during the fight, they can't support by attacking on their own, unless they use Boon, which heals only slowly and then they are just a melee class

    Warlocks can buff well before the fight, heal good during the fight and same after the fight. If they have embolden they can also support during the fight, but as melee class, not as good as Apothecary.

    Painboy can... not really good buff before the fight, poorly during the fight (Dok-bomb is like the medium Beacon of apo -> too slow) and instantly after the fight. However, they are somewhat limited in supporting during the fight, as they only got pistols. Good ones, but still. Otherwise they are comparable in melee to the apothecary, better poison, but that's it.

    But as said, don't nerf the Apo, buff everything else to Apo level :D

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