As the feature request part of the help center has been pretty much a tundra for a long time, I guess I might as well post it here on the forum instead, as it still holds relevance. So here it goes:


The way the evade/dodge/stamina and jump/fuel-system currently works is sort of detrimental to melee combat and elements of the movement functionality/system.


Firstly, for balance's sake, the jump-packs should be bifurcated from from the evasion system.
This has multiple reasons for why it's necessary (there's also on top of that the lore aspect of how jump-packs and rokkit-packs actually work and their potency, but that's besides the point, I digress).

Secondly, it sorts out movement mechanics.


But in the functionality aspect of it, how does it make sense that a devastator/havoc/long fang/dark reaper is capable of jumping away to dodge, but someone wearing a jump pack can't do that when they're out of fuel or any time for that matter (but get forced to use whole charges fuel to do tiny bits of evasion, and for that matter the in-air fuel-use of the little "fart"-jumps that barely move the character 1m up).

If the jump-classes still utilized the normal evasion-system for melee combat in addition to having the jump-pack accessible, suddenly they start to become more unique of a class.. as opposed to just being a ground assault type, that has access to a proprietary system for dodging that's also used for the class-mobility and unique aspect of the class.. but is LP-cost wise not justifiable for what a stamina charge costs (jump-pack evades are not twice as valuable as stamina-evades, particularly with the longer regen).

Most players would probably agree that 100LP for 1+ stamina is a bit much to begin with (but sort of still being justifiable), but then having to spend 200LP for a single charge of fuel? And 400LP for 2+ charges?
Even in a case like CSM where you can get a tiny bit of fuel regen if you have a certain mark equipped (but penalized if you have another) in conjunction with that fuel+ (which still requires that mark for the bonus, and that's additional LP you gotta spend and lock yourself into for the rest of the loadout), it's still not a justified cost when you have to spend that entire charge of fuel just do dodge in melee (assuming you don't fly away every time just to ground-bash again and spend a ton more time on the melee fight) in addition to that being your classes main function and utility.

So a non-jump class, spends half the LP cost for their evasive actions, even if that means they can't use that charge for a (pretty underwhelming) jump, it still has particularly high value in terms of "iframes" effectively being an invulnerability-mechanic accessible for half the LP.
Especially in the case of the in-air charge uses, that's just an absolute joke, spending an entire fuel charge to move 1m's worth up, that needs to be addressed too.. even if it'd mean it only used half of what a charge currently is, or equaled the same jump-potency as that initial charge used to get up in the air from the ground.


So more to the point of the bifurcation and how to deal with it once they're no longer utilizing the same system:

1. Moving the dodge/evade to the directional keys, in manner like "double-tap W to evade forward, double-tap A to evade left, D to evade right, S to evade back" or maybe "shift or ctrl+directional key from still-standing to dodge", freeing up the spacebar for specifically being used for jump-packs, vaulting and climbing (or even more functions).
   Even for every class, not just jump/rokkit-classes (swooping hawks too for that matter), freeing up the spacebar for other purposes (like more efficient climbing, and not bashing your face into a wall/ending up rolling into the wall or box you're trying to climb and spending stamina or fuel doing so).
2. Once the jump-system is separated from evasion, it can be expanded on more to function more like the lore equivalent of a jump pack, and primarily be a tactical movement utility for closing the distance and flanking.
   Could even have the in-air jumps be just as potent as the initial launch of the ground (and additionally the packs should still have an element of thrust to them while still on the air, which would allow for a more "floaty" movement whilst still in the air, for more refined movement, essentially turning down "gravity" while in the air), and making them specifically excel at their purpose (also justifying it being able to let those classes travel much further on those fuel charges, which should probably be changed to be more like the warp-charge system, where it's a bar you yourself control the amount you used when "channeling" it, or a fuel-gauge style overheat-system).

Once that sort of stuff is ironed out, then the work on getting melee right overall for the jump-classes can be handled appropriately as well (justifying their offensive abilities combined with mobility-aspect, as the Swooping Hawks excel at all they do for the most part, unlike the other factions).





If the stamina and fuel are separated, there can also be items/wargear that has differing combos or separate amounts of the two stats, allowing for more deep customization to fit the playstyle of individual players and classes, and even catering to mark-uniqueness for CSM (expanding on the mark-granted secondary effects on wargear, as well as a way around the illogical fuel-regen penalty for MoN).

Sure that "I-like-to-climb-over-a-certain-object-but-falsly-spend-a-stamina-point-for-rolling/jumppacking-in-front-it" is one of the moments everybody hates. Like the "I-accidently-jump/evade-over-this-and-fall-into-lava/water/deep hole"-moments... both are the two sides of one coin and maybe counter by adjusting the areas around these "jumpable" objects.

and regarding the separation of evade/dodge and jumppack: JPAs are "line-disrupters" / "hit-and-run" in this game - not ground assaults with a jumppack as in TT - that's why they made this game design decision and for easier balancing reasons (I assume). And with the current amount of ressources in mind, this would be a lot of work/rebalancing and so on...

It's mostly a coding issue, so it's not horribly hard. Small steps towards a larger goal eventually leads to greater outcome. Just starting with jump-pack gravity for a better feel, then making separate keybinds for vault/climb and evade/jump, etc. It's all relatively small things that combine to a far greater impacting totality

sure it's "just a coding"-problem. but it's - as I mentioned - a balancing problem. a balance change is already comin' up, which might throw off some people... and your suggestion (in the long run) is not only about tweaking numbers but changing game design on a more basic level for one class which might produce a cascade of balancing regarding other classes. yeah, they might introduce jump-pack gravity / burning it / fuel meter like melta and stuff, but this will produce other balancing issues if it's not only usable mid-air. I totally agree on the jump/evade - separate keys thing.

A balance change to JPs? What kind of change?

The general idea ain't bad. And actually something the dev-team might be able to do.

I don't get you fuel-rant tho. JPA's are already supreme. No Ground-Assault will ever be competitive, their gap-closing abilities are the reason why melee will never be balanced.
The costs are right where they belong.

I meant a general balancing change regarding bolter and some other tweaks which may shift the meta away from bolter and may also influence the performance of other classes due to this. then there is the "greater scheme" of "scream while dying". wasn't referring to JP/JPA in this case.
can't tell if "scream while dying" will have the same impact on balance like patch 1.3 - so it's just guessing.

The boltgun change is tiny in terms of overall impact on melee-classes, and not a valid argument for the majority of the suggested changes as such a small change does not shift it in favor of the jump-classes enough to negate already existing impeding factors that remain unchanged (such as being hit in air makes them just fall out of "flight", moronic super-long powerfist ground-slam hang-time(also supject to the former), insane regen-penalty of fuel for nurgle-users, almost non-existent regen-time for swooping hawks, etc).

Fuel part is secondary and low-priority, stayed around since my old help-center post. Majority focus lies with separation of keybinds&functions and making the packs feel better to use (and maybe function more like in their proof-of-concept stream for EC, or maybe like in relic's WH40K:SM, and feel like they take physics into account)

my main point is your suggestion regarding separation of JP and stamina gameplaywise for JPAs and alike.
- key separation vaulting and JP: I support this.
- JP working with a "heat meter": sure, we can try - but it will cost time regarding balancing and implementation
- separation of stamina and JP: well this will throw things off eventually balancewise and will work against "streamlining" game design, because one class gets one more button.

Don't take that personally or like I'm against your ideas, but there are many things to take into account here and even small changes may add up into an unforseen shift in meta.

Once again I need to emphasize that JPAs (in this game) are more of a hit-and-run line-disruption ambusher force, not a GA with a JP strapped onto it. Therefore devs may encourage playing a Slaanesh JPA over a Nurgle or Khorne JPA. And not all hits make JPAs fall out of flight - think there is a threshold which is: if your armour is gone - you drop. PF-ground-slam-time might be very long, but PF is mainly for AV - maybe it could be decreased, but not too much, because it could easily be abused if "overtuned". And Hawks are really glasscannons, they won't survive a decent firefight up close. Sure they are annoying and sometimes cancerous (if used by vets - which almost all eldar players are), but they don't win games - teamplay and skill do.

JPAs and alike are in a good place, if you are playing them "right". Sure devs may tweak them and what not, but do not expect "greater changes" gameplaywise like your suggestion regarding separation of stamina and fuel systems due to lack of ressources

if meta never changes, the game goes stale.

Changing up how a class is played and perceived can by all means be a good thing, but likewise it might be a bad and good thing at the same time (based on user-preference and perception, like the wolf priest changes giving them a bolter).

If jump-classes had an overall better core design, it would make it easier to balance them in both macro and micro, both for maneuverability and how they play in combat. Changes that lead to a clear and distinct separation between jump-classes and ground-melee classes would always be preferable, rather than just "oh this is a jetpack version of those on the ground".
If it lead to a deep strike aggressor type of class outcome from such changes, it would make them not only have a distinct purpose, but put a new "spin" on the meta and feel of the game.

The stamina and fuel thing is low priority, it's a thing that would be nice to see separated for more clear cut separations on item-stats, so stamina and fuel don't overlap on the same stat that just has a different name. There's no reason MoS should have quicker fuel regen just like there's no reason MoN should have vastly reduced regen, the regen for fuel should be the same across the board, and that's where changes to stamina and fuel could be applied separately (so balancing for one class wouldn't affect another unintentionally as an effect of it. (it's just silly to have 40sec fuel regen for instance, that's just absurd and makes no sense for either lore nor the sake of balance, stamina, sure fits with the lore, but not fuel).

The primary things I want to see, are first separating vaulting/climbing from evade and improvements to how jump-classes feel while in-air, then after that comes stuff like a "heat-bar/fuel-gauge" based fuel system (so users can control elevation and fuel consumption better, and make the use of it more of a "thrust amount" rather than a "click and x amount of fuel is used for y amount of elevation per click"), that would also allow for diving into a "risk"-based system for fuel for Orks for instance, where orks as a faction have the unique ability to use the rokkit-packs at their own risk in an "overheated" state chancing them blowing up at the possible reward of extra use. THEN after stuff like that, comes such as jpa's having a "stamina" thing on the ground, but that is just sort of throw-the-spaghetti-to-see-if-it-sticks kind of idea, as it has some potential but is relatively low priority (and could even be like, you only have 1 stam on the ground, can't get more, as jump-classes).