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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by jbregg, May 11, 2018.


Do you think EC would benefit from factions becoming more symmetrical?

  1. Yes

  2. No

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  1. Actually I would like it if all AV was about as effective as a power fist...
  2. Nudu Nudu First Blood!

    Well yeah but AV wasn't really the point here and its another topic in itself. The game mode and map design affects the AV so much. Even the 300points you get from a rhino kill isn't nearly enough compared to how important AV really is.
  3. Yes other topic for other threads.
    But AV is still, in my opinion just too powerful.
  4. Lerdoc Katitof Well-Known Member

    Its pretty decent for an unlimited ammo and disable AV weapon. You'll hit first hit, you'll hit all others.
  5. Nudu Nudu First Blood!

    well yeah. Maybe power fist was a bad example since its also trying to be AV. my point was though that for example many melee weapons dont really have a place in the meta at the moment so a fist could instead of a very meh weapon be a super elite power up instead. Or like a power sword could just be a more powerful but also more limited version of the chain sword.

    loadouts with certain cheese or powerful tools could stay powerful but have either a cooldown or a spawning condition. With current system things like power weapons could be elite only. (spawning system is a system and will not be added)

    For SM and CSM certain gear would be elite only where as eldar could have things like swooping hawk and scorpion be elite only.

    And yes only 1 spawn for a class like that would maybe be kinda boring but the elite system itself is really dumb at the moment.

    AV balance is beyond any control and it really just depends on the map and the game mode and how physics affect (or don't) the orks space ships and eldar lawnmowers
  6. Nudu Nudu First Blood!

    In a nutshell my suggestion is that limiting certain things could be a good change. For example countering a few swooping hawks is fine and that's what i want from asymmetrical balance BUT I don't want to deal with cheese where these classes are fucking spammed constantly.

    The current spawning system favors heavy spamming of the best cheesiest unit (like boltor and the like).
  7. Valentine Iyan Firebrand

    This is something we can all agree on, more distracting booty please!
    KorgasTheReforged likes this.
  8. Mainfold Mainfold Preacher

    Oh you mean like maybe unique classes that played differently? Like THE WOLF PRIEST USED TO? lol
  9. Still unique, an Apothecary cannot use a Maul where the wolf priest can.

    I think that is the only instance where a sub faction has something different to anything else within that faction. Strange there aren't similar asymmetries within other factions.
  10. Zael Zael Well-Known Member

    Hi, I would like to clarify my argument. As you're an IT-guy, I'll talk to you like an IT-guy.

    Balancing is mathematically no different than any other optimization-problem. You define parameters and a multidimensional function, a hyperplane. Then you look for an extremum of the function, e.g. when the balancing-function has a maximum.

    In our case, the local extremum easiest to find is at the origin of the coordinate-system where all parameters (=differences between races) are zero and all races are identical. However, this is not the only extremum. It's just the one easiest to find, because if you stay close to the origin of this extremum, the divergences of the hyperplane-function all point directly to the maximum.

    If you want to find another local extremum, you have to restart your balancing-algorithm with radically different start-values, so it won't converge again into a local extremum you already know.

    In layman's terms: The races are insufficiently balanced because they are still too much alike. If you make them less alike, you can eventually find another local extremum where they are balanced without being identical.

    e.g. Some parameters of EC are currently globally defined as constant, e.g. maximum team-size. If you were to allow a variation of these constants, that would create new degrees of freedom you can use in your search for balance.

    Or you just change the definition of "balanced" and try the optimization for a different function.
    jbregg likes this.

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