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AV and Fire Dragons - Is this one class THE reason why Eldar win so many matches?

Discussion in 'Eldar' started by Orkan, Mar 16, 2017.

  1. Orkan Orkan Arkhona Vanguard

    Anti-Vehicle tactics are crucial to winning matches.

    On defense stopping enemy spawns reaching your points is crucial. On Offence once points are held AV teams can help to guarantee that those points are held from the outside.

    In this game featuring transports fitted with 'Undeathinator Teleportarium Devices' where a whole squad/army can be deployed through a humble transport taking out the mobile spawn is the single biggest factor in almost guaranteeing a smooth win.

    Fire Dragons are good. No, Fire Dragons are excellent at what they do. An efficient Fire Dragon in a wave serpent destroys a transport in seconds. A team which focuses on dedicated AV can lock down an enemy team's ability to spawn and thus ensure that they control points more easily as attackers dribble in in ones and twos. Even a coordinated clanstack can be set back and 'managed' in this way.

    Eldar win a lot of matches; but there are so many problems with this unfinished faction with bad/disfunctional heavy weapons low EHP and a reliance on support that does not plague any other faction. Could it be that the Fire Dragon's prowess is skewing the statistics and making Eldar look like a better race than they really are? Those who play Eldar are more than aware of the glaring problems.

    Yet we still keep winning matches. Has the sun baked glory of the Fire Dragon overshadowed the faction and cause it to miss out on needed buffs and weapon implementation. Looking at match win rates any one could be forgiven for thinking that the Eldar are doing fine. Yet they are not. Many classes need finishing or extra help. If Devs look at win loss rates maybe theey are not considering the whole picture?
    One thing is clear Eldar can dominate enemy spawns by destroying enemy vehicles with a ruthleess efficiency and that makes the match a cakewalk for weaker classess to win. Is this the real problem?
    Avlaen, BlinD, thantrus and 13 others like this.
  2. I'm in full agreement of this thread. Vehicle and Anti Vehicle mechanics are a HUGE part of Eldar's current meta. The issue that I have with Eternal Crusade isnt in its balance or combat, but the way instances/battlefields work and how easy it is to abuse respawn and the vehicle respawn mechanics.

    I think its due to the way instances work that Eldar have not received love in some important areas, but continue to work as a functional race and therefore never get the attention and love they need.
    BlinD, thantrus, Noromiz and 10 others like this.
  3. Orkan Orkan Arkhona Vanguard

    I agree @Algernon. The game features an unhealthy meta where controlling enemy spawn is actually THE secret objective and a main way to win games. Teleportation whether to transports or to points also results in maps being unused to their full potential. There is no mobile frontline as there doesn't have to be.

    If I had my way I would remove mobile spawn altogether and replace it with faction 'deep strike' mechanics (drop pods/webways) and encourage teamplay and actual transportation by making transports just that - transports. Each side would still have their 'free' respawn available at each end of the maps.

    I do not have my way however and we have what we have.

    That said there is much room for improvement.

    I also believe all vehicles should require teamwork to takedown and should have a greater health pool. The rest of the faction should be brought up to the efficiency of the Fire Dragon in their respected role. I would not be averse to making their job take slightly longer if that was what was needed to 'complete' Eldar as a faction.

    Those Grav guns though, make my Dragon all Jelly, If Eldar had some of them in our armoury we'd always get our guava... ; P
    Sumshine likes this.
  4. Razmirth Sneaky-krumpin Subordinate


    Thing is, vs eldar they don't even need a team dedicated to hunting Tranports of tanks. One fire dragon in a falcon or serpent is more than capable of keeping on top of ALL enemy Tranports the whole game. I know cause I've done it before, and I'm fairly confident I was even playing in a few games with you orkan when I did it. Only time you require more help is if they keep transports moving, so a hawk with haywire grenades can go a long way. Granted it takes some skill to fly circles grenading a Tranport from the air, but I've done it /seen it done.

    Whenever I play orks I have my rokkit nob I use. Takes me quite a few rocket shots/sticky grenades to take out a transport, especially mobile ones. It's almost the same as using a reaper launcher to do it, only way less accurate. I always need one or the others with me to hunt tanks to guarantee success.

    So yea, I l think you would be accurate in saying a lot of eldar flak comes from people not placing blame where it truly lies, at their insta vehicle destroying. Even suiciding as a fire dragon leaves you enough time to double melta the back of a vechicle. Can't tell you how many times I've literally ran past 4 enemies all shooting at me and still blown up the transport/tank.
    thantrus, Sumshine, Talron and 3 others like this.
  5. Orkan Orkan Arkhona Vanguard

    @Sneaky-krumpin

    You are totally correct. One Dragon on the ball can play smart and lock down an enemy team. That Dragon will die over and over but therein lies the irony. It is QUICKER to destroy transports when you are killed as that way you get reloaded and rehealed and are at the next transport faster than if you were to survive and have to manually reload at your serpent or team resupply crate. That is bad game design if anything. I also totally agree I have solo managed to cripple enemy teams by getting to their transports. Single minded devotion and ignoring ALL enemy troops it is my only priority to set the bombs at the rear of that transport. If I do that AND get killed I'm out quick as you like ready to teleport redeploy close to the next target vehicle for another run. With these sorts of game mechanics I am rewarded by the game by dying on a sortie. : o

    In my opinion ALL AV should roughly have the same TTK on an enemy vehicle whether ranged AV or short range AV. This is also part of the problem.

    The advantage short range AV (FD's) have is that they can choose which armour facing to apply damage to. Ranged AV may not have the best angle on their firing solution hence they can have a longer TTK. This is why most people choose short range AV. It is just presently quicker. Too quick.
  6. Razmirth Sneaky-krumpin Subordinate

    Totally agree on all points. Sometimes I wonder if they should just get rid of vechicle small together. I mean they are a necessity and all, but more often than not they end up being a teams Achilles heel. Especially vs eldar
    Orkan likes this.
  7. Duximus Duximus Steam Early Access

    What this game have right now will keep forcing us to destroy apc to win. This game apc is not really an apc. It's just spawn point where you have to park right beside the point. Unless we are going to get new map and mode without needing apc as spawn point..
    Orkan likes this.
  8. Necromancer Rivindesh Subordinate

    I believe the issue would be solved if meltabombs had a set up timer so the firedragon cant dance around the transport while you try to take him out. At least then firedragons would have to fight rather than mindlessly suicide like a lemming.

    Save the orangutans!
    Talron and Maensith like this.
  9. Nosfantor Recruit

    In reply to the original post yes the way to win most maps is via spawn control. Mobile melta bundles (FD in a WS) win games and was what i used to farm XP when I have 300-400 ping. Now the key issue is that a Tactical with MB does as much damage to a stationary WS as a FD with 2 MBs to a Rhino so in Eldar vs SM matches they are equivalent in damage. Where the FD has the advantage however is that the WS is superior to the Rhino is mobility and can therefore be used as a FD delivery mechanism whilst the Rhino is used more as a mobile spawn. Another thing is that less marine players use meltabomb loadouts because it doesn't work as well vs Orks/Chaos transports which are more durable.

    At the moment Eldar are probably the worst faction at Fortress maps, especially at defending/attacking the B point because 1. Transports are less important 2. Less opportunities to flank 3. Bad AOE options.

    If you remove the meltabundle, Eldar would obviously be the worst faction in the game so they would need to be compensated in some other manner.
  10. Dragonkindred Dragonkindred Arkhona Vanguard

    Great Thread.

    There are a few points I'd like to add my 5 cents too;
    1. If bE is only gauging balance with a game win/loss view, then this game is going to get worse. A lot worse. As many people have said- good teams can win games against tougher uncoordinated opponents. Even a group of pugs can hold out on the last point, when defending, to steal a win.
    Game balance needs to also be about K/D ratios and average player level on each team. Statistical data needs needs to be collected for everything and outlier matches need to be investigated to see what happened. Only then can you start getting some real balance into the game.

    2. If a particular strat is working for one or the other factions, it falls to the other factions to get their shit together and do something about it. Focusing on destroying vehicles is not only an Eldar pastime. Granted Fire Dragons are very good at it (as they dam well should be), but the other factions can do it too. There are simple counters to the Fire Dragons. If the other factions aren't going to do something about it, bad luck. Don't gimp a faction for it (see point one).
    Hint: If you don't like Fire Dragons destroying your transports, try protecting better!

    3. I don't think transports should have unlimited spawns, in any match. If you limit the spawns, then the meta will change. The transports won't be the be all and end all of so many matches. The number of spawns per transport, I'll leave to the devs to decide, but 20-30ish should be more than enough?

    @Orkan I don't agree that TTK of ranged AV and CQB AV should be the same. Yes, you can spawn a tank and chase down the other factions transports, which seems easy to you. But, it is not always easy (at least for the rest of us "normal" people). It is a lot more dangerous having to get close, so I think CQB AV needs the lower TTK on vehicles.
    Sumshine likes this.

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