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ASC really needs more ammo

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LucianNostra, Mar 6, 2017.

  1. LucianNostra Well-Known Member

    The problem I have with the Impulse accel is that it is still a loss in DPS, yeah it's not a lot but it's still a DPS loss on a weapon that already has the worst matchups in TTK compared to Shootas or Bolters.

    The second problem I have with the Impulse accel is your telling me "well the solution to the issue of the ASC having worse potential is to spend 50 LP to help correct it" If you can't see a problem with that...

    Im not asking for a damage boost to the gun, or more rounds per magazine. I simply want more ammo so I have the POTENTIAL to put down as many enemy targets as the Bolter already does since the ASC gobbles up more ammo for the same effect thus burning it's supply faster
  2. Jaywalker Jaywalker Steam Early Access

    Half our stuff missing and half the balance being WIP is no reason to ask for the wrong stuff to happen.

    Again, Eldar Playstyle isn't meant to be about protracted firefights and if you want to do that get a TLSC(which is pretty garbage atm, but should be the Avenger's proper high-capacity option instead of an expanded mag).

    Not all factions are meant to have everything straight out of the box. Staying power is the thing Eldar need to buy, because they get stuff other factions need to invest in for free(at least that's the theory).
    If our freebies aren't working well enough for you, the correct course of action is to ask those be boosted or to play another faction, not to homogenize everything.
  3. Xio Valency Xi0 Preacher

    I want what everyone else has base, "basic" wargear like highly requested mods that we should have had like 5 months ago, not dreadnaughts, rhinos, auto cannons or plasma cannons or even apothecary healing.

    Why can I equip a cqb boltor and MoN and get more kills, better hip fire accuracy, bigger mags, more kills per mag, more range, more health, more ehp, a better pistol and then go nah mate playstyle, if you shoot a full second before hand you could win that fight because you move 15% faster unless they equipped MoS, if so then fuck you since its better, also no you can't have a mod everyone else on the yard has because we have to be fair and reject you basic content:rolleyes:

    Wait you only have 1 primary weapon on 4 classes out of 7? sorry no mods either because balance, hey buddy let me nerf the heavy with the worst options while we at it and not let you cap with melta.
    LucianNostra likes this.
  4. Jaywalker Jaywalker Steam Early Access

    Ah, but you see, that's not how it works.

    Eldar have their speed for free(only chaos get's to "invest" into this)and are the only ones with flying ranged infantry, they are the only ones that can invest into fast running heavies or double meltabombs.
    There are things unique to Eldar other factions cannot have and you wouldn't want that removed, now would you?

    The crux of the issue is that it's okay for certain things being exclusive or behind an investment wall, and as far as I'm concerned "damage potential" is something that it is okay for Eldar not to have as either.

    For Eldar to gain the capabilities that you wish to grant them, they would have to give up potential improvements in other areas, or even some of their existing power.

    This is all on top of the so far unchallenged argument that Eldar playstyle is not meant to encourage or reward protracted firefights. It is very deliberate that when the issue of staying power on defense came up during balancing, the solution chosen was a new warlock power, instead of a blanket buff to the base characteristics themselves(how well that worked out is a separate issue).
  5. LucianNostra Well-Known Member

    How is adding more ammo homongenizing everything? Last I checked the ASC still has less range, less damage, more spray and more rof. How is asking for the ability to actually hold a point without a gun running dry like the other guns something other than balance?

    When you give 1 faction lower EHP and tell them to fight targets with more EHP the idea should be planted in your brain that they also need the ability to take down those higher EHP targets in equal measure. The impulse accel doesn't increase how lethal the ASC is like a CQC barrel does to a bolter it simply tries to make the ASC's ammo try to equal out to what a Bolter gets.
  6. Xio Valency Xi0 Preacher

    Basic weapons mods should be a standard, if you cant accept that then I cannot help you

    Sure we can have asyetmrical balance mods like the cqb eldar barrel being hot trash that should give 20lp while cqb barrel for boltors gives you flat buffs with a downside so minor it hurts, kinda like MoN and Slaanesh but these basic things should be supplied, same goes for scopes for Shuriken weapons as bad as they would be.

    You want unique then give fear boltor rounds, dragonfire, loud and bleed rounds split between factions, not give everyone but that one single faction that never gets actual content but nerfs and band aids just because.
  7. LucianNostra Well-Known Member

    This is why I removed the post because I knew you'd go into something about "free"

    Eldar do not get speed for free or fast running heavies or double bombs. these all have things called costs

    Faster = Less HP
    Fast running heavies? 300 LP
    double Meltabombs? 400 LP
    Flying ranged infantry = even less HP and lower dps weapons

    Where exactly is it free? where is there no cost associated with those "free" things? Are they UNIQUE to Eldar? sure.. but it's defiantly not FREE. And that is why people will say it's balanced, because if there was not cost in either points or HP vs speed it would be overpowered.

    So why does the Bolter get FREE damage potential over the ASC? What is the DA or ASC doing that hasn't already had a cost attached to it that would warrant this?
  8. Warboss Sickytoof Karond Steam Early Access

    One of these things doesn't have perfect recoil-free accuracy :p
    Jaywalker likes this.
  9. Jaywalker Jaywalker Steam Early Access

    Perhaps it is because I got the two arguments I'm having here mixed up that I'm arguing against points you may not have made, but my point still stands: Having a different capability in terms of their staying power enforces upon Eldar players a different approach to how they fight their battles.
    Being forced to pick their engagements and making their ammo preciously scarce makes for an excellent enticement to actually use your maneuverability to flank the enemy and strike at them up close, where your weapon is strongest while theirs has peaked in power already.

    I'm willing to concede that eventually an increase to the spare ammo might be necessary, but ATM I stand by the belief that it'd be better to pursue other avenues of addressing the issue first(such as ensuring that Eldar the strongest at the 12.5m range).
    The only increase I see as necessary is the cosmetic bump to 60 per mag, as it'd align the ammo count with the burst size.

    It's not really about free in terms of cost, it's about access and possibilities.

    Eldar have the highest default speed, so high in fact that none other factions cannot even reach it at all(only chaos can invest into being as fast as the baseline Eldar, and nothing is as fast as a Hawk).
    They can invest into durability that matches other factions, but not if those other factions invests into their durability in turn.
    Similar situation happens for our guns: we have such high base accuracy on most of them that we don't even need to invest to stay on top, but in turn we have the "damage supply" that typically stays the lowest because our investment options are limited.

    That only works when all weapons adhere to the same standard, which they do not.

    An ammo capacity mod would go against Eldar combat doctrine, which makes it a bad idea from a lore perspective(nevermind that the need to reload within a span of a single battle is already a violation of that), it would go against the kind of gameplay they are meant to be encouraged towards, and is unnecessary in light of other possibilities offered by barrel mods similar to the impulse accelerator that'd allow to gain similar benefits on top of the benefits penetration ammo or fast mags grant.

    No other faction get's to mix efficiency mods with ammo types and to give up that benefit for a benefit Eldar as a faction shouldn't even want to have is plain wrong.
  10. Xio Valency Xi0 Preacher

    Eldar doctrine goes along the lines of you have 1000 rounds and unload in seconds combi with friends for easy kills, Eldar technically should have the largest mags in the game if you pull the "doctrine excuse" they call it blade storm.

    Also cqb barrel, fuck the impulse generator every boltor has a better version and mag mods, your failing to make sense here, the boltor also has an ammo efficiency mod with that barrel and can take ammo mods along with it, every Space Marine faction get's to mix efficiency mods with ammo types, its how I play Chaos, I mean my Eldar with better gear and durability, Orks might too If they have a cqb barrel as well.

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