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Are The Traitor Legions 'just' In Their Heresy/rebellion?

Discussion in 'Chaos Space Marines' started by Abaddon the Despoiler, Apr 14, 2014.

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Are the Traitor Legions 'Just' in their Heresy/Rebellion?

  1. Yes

    47.6%
  2. No

    14.3%
  3. Some are (Please go into detail).

    38.1%
  1. JudgeDeath JudgeDeath Well-Known Member

    Big underline and yellow highlight marker pen on this.
    Abaddon the Despoiler likes this.
  2. Ikthalon Ikthalon Subordinate

    I get the feeling this all comes down to perspectives. Personally I cannot stay objective when something is about my favorite legion or favorite Primarch, I imagine we're seeing the same events from different points of view. Also it matters what books you've read, for example I have read Thousand Sons but not Prospero Burns.
    Baygle likes this.
  3. Baygle Baygle Well-Known Member

    I know exactly which scene you are referring to, since it is the one where Lorgar, Magnus and Russ are on the same planet, where it is mentioned that Russ is often pretending to be as barbaric as he seems to be. That still doesn't change the fact that he is not a good person because he is more aggressive in his behaviour than most other primarchs. The comparison to Angron serves it's purpose to show that the most bloodthirsty of them all also has his motivations and reasons to act, yet he still is best known for the fact that mercy simply doesn't exist in his vocabulary. And that's a trait that Russ shares with him.

    Concerning the attack on Prospero, I distinctly remember that the defense was not ready for battle, since Magnus wanted to accept responsibility for his actions, and the first strike was an orbital attack on the planet. That's not what I'd call a warning, that's an act of aggression.

    As I said before the argument "His legion was supposed to be executioners" is not convincing me a bit, and I'm pretty sure that the eye of terror will close itself before I honestly believe that Leman Russ is a good person from a moral standpoint. There are quite a few loyal characters that I like but not consider a good person. Russ might not have been a simple-minded individual, which is something most people would say a barbarian is, but he is nevertheless an aggressive person, willing to do things that are simply not good at all. The fact that every primarch would follow that order doesn't make him a good person. I'm not here trying to say that Angron or any other primarch is better in this perspective, my point is simply that Russ is not a good person because of the things he decides to do the way he does them. It doesn't matter if the way he behaves when he is slaughtering his former brothers or destroying a civilisation is an act, the fact that he is doing it in the first place makes it morally questionable.
    Chaplain Valerius and Galen like this.
  4. Nice guy was an inappropriate term, he's not really a good guy not just because his methods, which can be called refined savagery, but his insistence on not only killing those that oppose the Emperors rule, many of which resist simply on the grounds of valuing their independence, but utterly destroying their people, history, and the very memory of them. His self appointed role as the Emperors executioner is no excuse of being that thorough, a personal need so deep he came to blows with another legion so that his extermination could be absolute. And the fact he attempted this annihilation on the Thousand Sons, no matter the interference by Horus highlights the excess of his barbarity.
    Galen, Ikthalon and Baygle like this.
  5. Baygle Baygle Well-Known Member

    I think the conclusion of this whole matter should be that the question of Russ' righteousness in his doings depends on whether you put more focus on the things he did right or the ones he did wrong. While I have already said which seems more important to me in that matter, I also think that Abaddon and JudgeDeath have a valid standpoint on their own, which is probably based more on the things that Russ did because he thinks it was the good thing to do.
    Galen likes this.
  6. Good and right are also two different things, and yes in Russ's view his methods are the right thing to do, even if someone such as myself sees this as venturing into the self-righteous. I do not discredit the viewpoint that the results of the Space Wolves actions make them good as that it is good for the Imperium, but that the extent in which he undertakes his edicts, which goes as far as total cultural genocide of any who oppose the Emperor, surpasses the leeway in which one can serve a higher purpose through brutal actions and still be considered "good."

    Personally I don't really see the virtue of being a tyrant's lapdog.
    Galen and Baygle like this.
  7. VoxC VoxC Menial

    The Space Wolves are like historical vikings, not the fantasy vikings of popular myth or Hollywood revisionism. The viking religion was at its core a death cult. Not all of the Scandinavians practiced that religion with equal zeal, but the fundamentalists were extremely scary because of its nature.

    I don't much like Russ because he's only a few degrees from being a full blown psychopath. However I do appreciate the fidelity with which they recreated the mentality of a viking warlord.
    Chaplain Valerius likes this.
  8. Small point, not really affecting your statement, but the Space Wolves seem to me more like the northerners that converted to Christianity and started the convert or die crusades on its behalf, rather than true Vikings.
    Ikthalon and Galen like this.
  9. JudgeDeath JudgeDeath Well-Known Member

    The big misunderstanding here seems to be that Russ was bloodthirsty .. Did he relish battle and contest, definetly. Did he care for honor and victory, definetly.

    Was he bloodthirsty, no. It is just the fighting style of the wolves, pure controlled agression executed with pinpoint accuracy, not some mad berzerker rage attack even if it looked like that. This is allso the "edge" the wolves have, their tactical advantage over the enemy expecting a barbarian army. Wolves are pretty much one of the most tactically solid and nitpicking guys. Its not just my opinion its in the lore told out pretty much word to word.

    I think it was very expressed in the book with the burning of prospero,the remembrancer and council of nikea etc. Someone who remember if it was "Prospero burning" please confirm it :)
    If that was the book I need to read it again, it is one of the best wh40k books I have read.
    kaneda1321 and Baygle like this.
  10. Baygle Baygle Well-Known Member

    I know that you're right about what you say, that Russ is not a simple berserker charging directly into enemy lines, but using tactics and precise attacks rather than trying to overwhelm the enemy in the same way a group of World Eaters would do it. But it's also part of the lore that the Wolves have eradicated cultures because they felt it was part of their mission during the great crusade, when other legions were trying to integrate these cultures into the imperial society and that's why they prefered to completely destroy these civilisations instead of spending time to put more effort into a long-term assimilation. But honestly, I know exactly what you mean when you say that the wolves have an edge because their enemies are expecting something different - it's similar when people assume everyone who follows Khorne is as obvious about it as the World Eaters are.

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