This is, of course, a valid standpoint for the Imperium and the teachings of the Imperial Religion. That death is the only form of redemption for a heretic and that traitors are very much beyond it. - But I think that we have already established this fact, this thread is asking for more thoughts about the moral choices and it would be more helpful if you'd participate without bias in this discussion. I know it can be tempting for players of loyalist factions to reduce it too "Booh, Chaos" but that's not what we're looking here for. Very well, you've written a whole lot which I can mostly agree on and I think you deserve some respect for your reference to Thomas Hobbes'. But there are still some things that I'd want to put into a different perspective. For example, I don't think that the idea of redemption means that the Chaos Space Marines are wrong. Redemption only suggests that they feel like they did wrong and need to make up for it. Now after thousands of years this won't be of any interest for most of them, but I can say that it would be possible for newly fallen Space Marines to have done something that seemed necessary at the moment, but which forced them to join Chaos - using a daemon weapon in order to slay a greater daemon, attacking forces of the Imperium due to some reason the rest of the Imperium is unaware of, things like that. And I believe that they can feel regret for their deeds, even if necessary, since it put them somewhere outside the Imperium. But can they expect more than redemtion in death? I think not. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that the term itself doesn't mean the Empire is right, it just means a single person feels like they did something wrong. I think the fact that I pointed out Slaanesh out of all four chaos gods means something. Maybe it means that I have a very disturbing interest in you and you should be concerned about it (call me ), or I was refering to the fact that Slaanesh's existance is the only one you can basically pinpoint in its creation: the Eldar. It is a well known fact that they messed up and that Slaanesh was the result of their messy business. But still Slaanesh gets power from human hedonism as well. The thing I want to adress is the fact that humans are not the heroes of the warp and therefore not the only influence there. The sadism of the Dark Eldar also feeds into this, creating sadistic images of the warp which are ready to hunt and torture humans themselves. So I wouldn't say humanity is the only factor which serves chaos, it's just the one mostly adressed in books. Totally agree on that part. Although, like before, I want to distinguish two kinds of people here: The heretic is believed to be misguided by some powers greater than himself, therefor not responsible for his actions. This is the kind of guy you burn on a pyre because it's the way he is forgiven for his misguidance. A heretic can find salvation in death, at least according to the Imperium's beliefs. A traitor on the other side is an enemy of mankind, a person who opposes the Imperium because he wants to. He is not misguided but well aware of his treason and therefor responsible for anything that happens around him. These people can't even expect salvation in death, since they are outcasts of humanity. So I'd say the heretic, if sincerely blinded by the motivations of his doings, can renounce his views before death and regret his actions, putting him in a place where salvation is granted. The traitor on the other hand has chosen his fate and rolled the dice. He should be the one who needs to stay loyal to his own ideals, and there is nothing weaker in my chaotic mind than a traitor who renounces his views before death. In short: What you said about heretics in general is what I think about traitors, since some people were not aware of their doings and the forces behind them, but still served chaos in some way. And I believe that those people are not weakminded or cowardish for changing their views once they've become aware of the truth. Dear lord, have you ever considered that you might be an Eldar? I see that D33tly is pushing your buttons but this whole "you are mindless fools of greater powers" "pawns in the grand scheme of things" "only death awaits you" thing is something I've heard about a billion times now, mostly from the pointy-eared ones who see everyone who is not one of them in that way. If you start with this imperial propaganda, don't expect people like D33tly not to go into his role as Chaos Space Marine and show the same sort of arrogance. It would be nice if this would stay out of this thread though, since this verbal exchange of blows is not really contributing to the topic.
I still can't believe we're debating philosophy over Warhammer. Of course, you're right. I was only thinking of those marines that actually turned to Chaos for Chaos' sake, instead of those which use its powers to defend the Imperium, and only thinking of 'Redemption' in a religious/imperial way. But on a per-marine, ethics basis, I totally agree. Should've thought of that sooner. *winks* True, Slaanesh is mostly a result of the Eldar being Eldar. While I agree with you on the other points, I think man is the warp's premier architect. Of course, the glowing bonfires that are Eldar souls might count more strongly (especially considering that their emotions are far stronger than those of humans, if I remember correctly), but the sheer mass of human souls should count for something. You're right again, though. Humans aren't the only souls around... now I wonder whether Orks have a presence in the Warp, I mean, beyond Tuska the Demon-Killa's Waaagh!... Absolutely agree on that part. I actually meant traitors as in, those who chose for themselves, and used 'Heretic' purely in order to say something other than 'Traitor' or 'Chaos Space Marine' (I still find it a bit hard to believe we're debating philosophy... on... 40k...) It actually reminds me of a nice short story I read once, even though I abhor its author, and disagree with its tone. It was about an atheist who took a walk in a forest, and encountered a bear. That bear wanted to kill and eat him. In the last seconds of the atheist's life, time freezes, and God appears to him, and tells him that if he renounces atheism and turns to God, he'll save him. The atheist declines, saying it would be weak to turn to religion in the last moments of a life devoted to atheism. God agrees, but still says he will grant one wish. The atheist then wishes for the bear to be a devout Christian instead, which God grants. Time runs normally, and the bear takes a moment to thank God for his meal before devouring the atheist.
You better start believing in philosophy stories... because you're in one! ò.ó *g* You and your dirty mind *winks back* Well, the number of humans surely outweighs the Eldar now, but I don't know about the past. Maybe Khorne was born before mankind, ever since the Eldar first discovered how fun it is to slaughter someone and praise Khaine? I honestly don't know. Also, I've no idea how all the brutality and bloodshed of the Orks is affecting the warp, but since they are a psychic active race, I'd assume they have some effects. Another example of things I don't know and can only debate about ^^ But there's always the possibility that there are more and more xenos races out there, some of which may very well be supporting the forces of chaos, even if it's just in the way they behave. As far as I know there is no such thing in the books or somehow in the lore, but I just want to say that GW has the possibility to think about new races anytime they want. Even in that scenario mankind could very well be the major player in terms of numbers again. Well, I know it is nip-picking if I ask of everyone to stick to this terminology, but I thought it would be quite useful in the point I was trying to make, it wasn't meant to somehow critisize your arguement. I somehow expected that the bear would not eat the atheist but kill him due to their religious differences. But the ending was forshadowing a bit. It's definitely a nice comparison to the question about changing your views. Now in my opinion, the atheist had more than just two choices. He could a) refuse to renounce atheism because he is holding onto his own beliefs although he saw God b) refuse to renounce atheism because the reason would be selfish and not according to his own beliefs c) turn to religion because it would save his life, even though it was not according to his own beliefs or d) turn to religion because he now had proof that religion was right after all. According to what we discussed before, the answer a) would be what a traitor who does not wish to appear weak or cowardish would choose, whereas d) is what a heretic by definition would do, accepting his own mistake. I don't think b) would be anyone's choice, since I doubt a traitor would say "I'm still a heretic, because it would be selfish if I change it now" or something similar, whereas c) is exactly what a weakminded traitor would choose.
You show your incompetence through the inability to comprehend how our Dark Masters will reward us. You speak of how I will be tossed side if I become useless, but what of you? When you are useless, what will your shattered Imperium do for you? Many a time, the Dark Gods will lend you a hand, and get you to your feet once more through their bountiful gifts from the Eye. In your rotting empire, once you're no longer useful to your dead god, what do you receive? What gift will your dead god grant, which I cannot? Which chaos cannot? You are small minded, as you cannot see the infinite power of chaos, all of which is granted to it's dearest followers in due time.
you will be rewarded by being tossed into the meatgrinder to satisfy for the dark gods bloodlust, do not fool yourself to be dear to any of them. tell me heretic, how many millenia more suffering, sorrow and bitter regret will you have to suffer untill you realize the futility of serving chaos ? how many times will your black crusades be shattered on the rock which is the cadian gate ? tell me, how do our psykers, the inquisiton, or the grey knights destroy you wherever you set foot on imperial soil ? where are your gods when his most holy wraith strike you ? how does a living saint bring swift justice to you daemonic spawn, if the god emperor is this powerless? think yourself invincible heretic. we have beaten you a thousand times back into the eye, we will do it again and again untill our last breath.
Big words, coming from a lowly mutt such as yourself! You speak of us having regret, sorrow, and suffering, but it is truly you who are the ones suffering? I myself have enjoyed the millenia spent at war with you Imperial bastards, cutting through your "Holy Marines" like butter with my sword, and sending your tanks into he warp with a mere thought. It has truly been an enjoyable experience to hear the screams of your men as they are forcibly pulled into the warp. You speak of psykers and the inquisition... Yet, how many of those are corrupted by the temptations of our dark lords? You fool yourselves into believing you are performing your "god's" will, when all you are truly doing is fighting off the inevitable. All will come to chaos, or die beneath our iron boots! Perhaps you have beaten the great Abbadon's scouting crusades, but how fares the thirteenth? Hmm? Last I saw, you lapdogs were running with your tail between your legs, back towards your last bastion on Cadia... Yet, you continue to fight and die, in a futile attempt to stop our Warmaster's crusade, a crusade which will bring the walls of Terra CRASHING DOWN UPON YOUR QUIVERING HEADS! Though, please, do continue your "Holy fight" against us... It is enjoyable to watch a dying mutt writhe.
I can see redemption for the chaos Marines that have not yet sworn loyalty to one of the main chaos gods. Like some members of the night lords swear loyalty only to their brothers. I see the chances being very slim if not nonexistent for even that point though, most servants of the emperor would laugh at the thought of that. Any chaos that have sworn themself to any of the main gods have no chance at redemption period in my mind, generally there pretty comfortable where that at. Once you cross over certain lines you can't take it back.
