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Anything you want Nerfed or Buffed?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by acepost, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. None of these equates to Mathematics or Meta builds, they are just all pure luck, or stupidity, on the part of the player.

    Like the random chance that happened to me on Olypsis the other day, 5 of us deploy out of a Rhino, 3 of us on our Vet builds and the Rhino driver thinks I know I'll press W and move the rhino forward and he ran all 5 of us over. Now admittedly the game mechanics auto deployed us out the front, but heck if your Rhino suddenly empties dont move for a couple of seconds. even against Eldar it would hold up until the deployees had dealt with the threat. The player driving didn't even say sorry, atleast we dont think he did, it was all in Crylic (?)
    Krayt likes this.
  2. Krayt Krayt Preacher

    if a duel Leroy in 1v1 and he doesnt use a meta build he is gonna die(since when we duel the duel generaly ends by 10hp difference(one did a bodyshot instead of headshot or missed one bullet)) , plain and simple , if we both use meta its pretty much a 50/50 chance
  3. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    I...I can't even. The ONLY scenario that is worth considering is a perfect environment with no situational factors or skill-discrepancies.
    That doesn't mean that none of those exist, of course they do, but there is no point in considering them.
    Based on your reasoning, I could justify pretty much every, ever so absurd theory. "Lascannons are competitive to Bolters" That is, because if the Bolter-user is stuck in terrain and can't move and is also reloading, the Lasnannon could wipe them out rather easily.

    There are following scenarios you could, theoretically look at:
    -Those where the odds are stacked against you, due to situational modifiers or skill.
    -Those in favor of you, same reasons.
    -Those that are perfectly neutral.

    But in all of them, you have a greater chance to win if you play a more optimized build.
  4. People have to realise that you cant do balance equations based on Meta loadouts, it just doesnt work like that, for two reasons...
    1. Not all players have the same loadout
    2. Not all players are Rank 5 Vets with all boxes opened
    The only way any sort of balance can be maintained is by doing the mathematics on base weapon stats, so Meta doesnt even come into play.

    For example say a baseline bolter is the same as a baseline TLASC, each modification then only gives 0.25% to its baseline, so with a full set of mods its 1% difference. However that 1% can be negated with a well timed roll/dodge and makes play style come into play. The game never should be about Meta load outs, but about how each person plays the game.

    When I played WoW my Horde Elf was a warrior who carried two two handed swords, was I insane playing that instead of the Meta ranged character? Probably. Was I effective as a Melee DPS? Hell yeah. Same as EC, I play Melee characters each chance I get, am I effective? More so than with a bolter at mid range, which the score board reflects.
  5. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    One, last time before I am done with this conversation:
    It does not matter, what anyone plays. What matters is what I base my math on!
    With a perfectly optimized loadout, my chance to win is x
    With a not perfectly optimized loadout, my chance to win is x-f(t); f(t)>=0
    I do not care about the individual outcome of every, possible fight, I care about the supremum or, more specifically, the maximum of all possible fights.
    'Meta' means looking for what makes you most likely to win. That does not have to imply you win every time or even the majority of times, it only means that it is objectively better than any alternative.
    It means that you will have a higher success-rate across all scenarios than with any other loadout.

    The reason why we talk meta if we talk balance is very simple: If we used any other point for reference, we'd have wiggling room up top. If I used the average loadout as reference and calculated my winning chances, I will end up with a number suggesting I win x% of all of my fights. Yet, in reality, will end up winning either more or less, no matter, how long I keep going.
    If I use the top as reference, I get a number saying I will win x% of my fights OR MORE. And this will turn out to be true if I play an infinite amount of matches.

    Can you understand this?! Meta is not 'better', meta is not perfect, but meta allows us to create a mathematically valid context to work with, which is not something any other model suffices for.
    It is as accurate as we can get and it means that, if I am facing an inconsistency in the model, I will always be better than I predicted, never worse.
    ProteusVM likes this.
  6. Krayt Krayt Preacher

    0.25%? Just cqc bolter alone is 8% more damage and does not change play style ... then u add drum mag , that expends his damage/clip by 100% ... still not change play style
    The whole game is about meta , the only person that i can think of the is outside meta and doing well is proteus with his stalker bolter , but just because of skill difference , if he 1v1 us he gets shit on because bolter>stalker
    ProteusVM and LucianNostra like this.
  7. Konoko Konok0 Arch-Cardinal

    And out of this consists of 50% of games. And you do not take this into account in your calculator.
    How much did you play? 2 thousand hours? Maybe for understanding, you need 4,000 hours?

    The calculator will work only in conditions 20 @Tan vs 20 @Tan
    And even in these conditions - the conditions may not be the same. - 1 @Tan can drink too much vodka, the other @Tan do not get enough sleep, at the third @Tan have ping 999
    All these accidents, which in the match is determined by hundreds or even thousands lead to the fact that 1 @Tan won and the other @Tan lost.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    There are no conditions in a pure vacuum in reality. There is a theory of probability.
  8. You're example would just be a reasoning for stating "there are situations where a lascannon can beat a bolter". Jumping to "Lascannons are competitive to Bolters" is very exaggerated, even if you are just trying to get your point across.

    I agree that you have a greater chance to win if you play with an optimized build. But I disagree that the optimized build has to be the meta build, just because in a theoretical mathematical situation it would win.
  9. Proteus Lychoro ProteusVM Forum Beta Tester

    meta builds >>>>>> non meta builds

    the only time you will beat someone with a non meta build while they are running a meta build is if they are terrible or if you're a better player when it comes to aiming, positioning & maneuvering whilst the other guy with a meta build is playing full retard.

    making loadouts for level 1 - 4 is also pretty pointless, yeah sometimes its better to go off meta when you haven't got everything unlocked but you will drop that shit fast once you unlock the tools you need to make an optimal build.

    you might be better with melee than ranged despite the math showing that you would be much better as a ranged class, but that is you gimping yourself into 1 or 2 situations such as hiding behind a corner and waiting for people to come close so you can RMB them to death - versus anyone good you will simply get obliterated because they won't fall for the limited opening moves you can make as melee to really catch someone off guard.

    it's sort of akin to picking up the nade bundle and exclusively using that because it's the only weapon you can get kills with, yeah you'll do better than swinging your knife around like a retard but you'll also limit your maximum potential - tactical archetypes w/ bolter, tlasc or big shoota in EC are the most versatile and effective classes, the ones with the highest potential for a skilled player to destroy his enemies - it's better to practice with meta builds and get good with them than settle for objectively worse builds that will limit how good you can actually be outside of maybe 1 or 2 niche situations.

    you can use whatever builds you want but don't try and justify it as somehow being a valid competitive choice - it is a choice for you that allows you to have more fun or make use of easy to use mechanics like spamming RMB for easy kills at close range unless your enemy is a competent player and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that, some people play games to be competitive and others just to have fun.
  10. Catnium Catnium Well-Known Member

    I'm going to go out on limb here and claim that I believe everyone here partaking in this discussion is atleast running an optimised build even if it's not a meta build.

    Because... well I honestly don't think your all that stupid tbh.
    Heck I use a calc that's made by someone in this community to actually optimise all my builds..
    So yeah.. this kinda just leaves skill to talk about and skill discussions are soooo 1995.
    and we all know how those go by now My e-peen is better than your e-peen , check the length of my power mace's shaft etc etc.
    Such a waste of energy tbh to do that here , just kill each other in the game and find out that way ;)
    I almost killed Leroy once!! .. but then he came back from being afk...:oops:

    Thanks for that calc btw!
    I got a lot of enjoyment out of the calc by using it to make weird ass builds that actually work .. for me atleast.
    Jimmy_Neutron likes this.

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