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Anything you want Nerfed or Buffed?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by acepost, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. I'm not sure how your example has any relevance. We're not living in a perfect environment with 100% hit rate. Not even close to it. If your definition/idea of meta only works in a perfect environment, it's nonsense.
  2. Konoko Konok0 Arch-Cardinal

    Mathematics was on their side:
    1 vs 2 and 1 vs 3
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    Rocket launcher vs fly JPA
    and ZzapDeffgun vs fly Swooping Hawks
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    Lascannon MC vs Unique
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  3. Konoko Konok0 Arch-Cardinal

    Random situations that changed all mathematics
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    And there are a lot of such moments.
  4. None of these equates to Mathematics or Meta builds, they are just all pure luck, or stupidity, on the part of the player.

    Like the random chance that happened to me on Olypsis the other day, 5 of us deploy out of a Rhino, 3 of us on our Vet builds and the Rhino driver thinks I know I'll press W and move the rhino forward and he ran all 5 of us over. Now admittedly the game mechanics auto deployed us out the front, but heck if your Rhino suddenly empties dont move for a couple of seconds. even against Eldar it would hold up until the deployees had dealt with the threat. The player driving didn't even say sorry, atleast we dont think he did, it was all in Crylic (?)
    Krayt likes this.
  5. Krayt Krayt Preacher

    if a duel Leroy in 1v1 and he doesnt use a meta build he is gonna die(since when we duel the duel generaly ends by 10hp difference(one did a bodyshot instead of headshot or missed one bullet)) , plain and simple , if we both use meta its pretty much a 50/50 chance
  6. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    I...I can't even. The ONLY scenario that is worth considering is a perfect environment with no situational factors or skill-discrepancies.
    That doesn't mean that none of those exist, of course they do, but there is no point in considering them.
    Based on your reasoning, I could justify pretty much every, ever so absurd theory. "Lascannons are competitive to Bolters" That is, because if the Bolter-user is stuck in terrain and can't move and is also reloading, the Lasnannon could wipe them out rather easily.

    There are following scenarios you could, theoretically look at:
    -Those where the odds are stacked against you, due to situational modifiers or skill.
    -Those in favor of you, same reasons.
    -Those that are perfectly neutral.

    But in all of them, you have a greater chance to win if you play a more optimized build.
  7. People have to realise that you cant do balance equations based on Meta loadouts, it just doesnt work like that, for two reasons...
    1. Not all players have the same loadout
    2. Not all players are Rank 5 Vets with all boxes opened
    The only way any sort of balance can be maintained is by doing the mathematics on base weapon stats, so Meta doesnt even come into play.

    For example say a baseline bolter is the same as a baseline TLASC, each modification then only gives 0.25% to its baseline, so with a full set of mods its 1% difference. However that 1% can be negated with a well timed roll/dodge and makes play style come into play. The game never should be about Meta load outs, but about how each person plays the game.

    When I played WoW my Horde Elf was a warrior who carried two two handed swords, was I insane playing that instead of the Meta ranged character? Probably. Was I effective as a Melee DPS? Hell yeah. Same as EC, I play Melee characters each chance I get, am I effective? More so than with a bolter at mid range, which the score board reflects.
  8. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    One, last time before I am done with this conversation:
    It does not matter, what anyone plays. What matters is what I base my math on!
    With a perfectly optimized loadout, my chance to win is x
    With a not perfectly optimized loadout, my chance to win is x-f(t); f(t)>=0
    I do not care about the individual outcome of every, possible fight, I care about the supremum or, more specifically, the maximum of all possible fights.
    'Meta' means looking for what makes you most likely to win. That does not have to imply you win every time or even the majority of times, it only means that it is objectively better than any alternative.
    It means that you will have a higher success-rate across all scenarios than with any other loadout.

    The reason why we talk meta if we talk balance is very simple: If we used any other point for reference, we'd have wiggling room up top. If I used the average loadout as reference and calculated my winning chances, I will end up with a number suggesting I win x% of all of my fights. Yet, in reality, will end up winning either more or less, no matter, how long I keep going.
    If I use the top as reference, I get a number saying I will win x% of my fights OR MORE. And this will turn out to be true if I play an infinite amount of matches.

    Can you understand this?! Meta is not 'better', meta is not perfect, but meta allows us to create a mathematically valid context to work with, which is not something any other model suffices for.
    It is as accurate as we can get and it means that, if I am facing an inconsistency in the model, I will always be better than I predicted, never worse.
    ProteusVM likes this.
  9. Krayt Krayt Preacher

    0.25%? Just cqc bolter alone is 8% more damage and does not change play style ... then u add drum mag , that expends his damage/clip by 100% ... still not change play style
    The whole game is about meta , the only person that i can think of the is outside meta and doing well is proteus with his stalker bolter , but just because of skill difference , if he 1v1 us he gets shit on because bolter>stalker
    LucianNostra likes this.
  10. Konoko Konok0 Arch-Cardinal

    And out of this consists of 50% of games. And you do not take this into account in your calculator.
    How much did you play? 2 thousand hours? Maybe for understanding, you need 4,000 hours?

    The calculator will work only in conditions 20 @Tan vs 20 @Tan
    And even in these conditions - the conditions may not be the same. - 1 @Tan can drink too much vodka, the other @Tan do not get enough sleep, at the third @Tan have ping 999
    All these accidents, which in the match is determined by hundreds or even thousands lead to the fact that 1 @Tan won and the other @Tan lost.
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    There are no conditions in a pure vacuum in reality. There is a theory of probability.

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