So, I love playing Dark Eldar on the table top and in the original Dawn of War, bad as the story was sometimes the game was still fairly fun. So i wanted to make a thread to discuss some ideas for the Dark Eldar. I know that that is a minimum of years away, but even with all the bugs and severely curtailed content compared to what was pitched to the earlier founders I'm still enjoying the game. So I figured I would get some discussion going among the eldar players about how we could make our Pointier cousins fun to play. Hopefully without making people complain about how overpowered they are. One of the first and most unique things that could be implemented but i could see being less fun for other factions is unfortunately, their primary weapon. The Splinter Rifle and its variants(pistol, carbine, and Cannon) are relatively similar to the Shuriken weapons Craftworld Eldar we currently play use. The primary differences, other than a pointier aesthetic, are the shape of the ordinance, they fire pointed shards of material rather than the sharpened discs the Shuriken catapult. The second difference, and the one that would be significantly harder to balance is the fact that most any Dark Eldar weapon is poisoned. Anyone who has tried the multi player knows how aggravating the poison mechanic can be when fighting Tyranid. I had a couple ideas of how we could curtail the power that having your cap class and heavy weapon class all using poisonous weapons would cause. First is that we cap the level of the poison debuff that can be achieved. The poison the tyranids apply keeps stacking up, but if a particular type say the Splinter Rifle, could apply the poison but couldn't raise it above 2 or 3 that means that the primary source of damage would still have to come from accurate shots, and good healers could still counter it if you get to cover quickly. Higher damage weapons, like the Splinter Cannon would be able to apply higher levels of poison, so higher levels of the debuff. The other idea was to leave the poison off of the weapons but let them unlock and equip it somehow later. Whether that be equiped through the weapon mods slots or somewhere else in your load out was something that i hadn't quite figured out. If it was in the mod slot however, you could have poisons which have different effects, so you have one person using a poison that does damage over time, and another who's poison does no damage but slows stamina regen. this would add a level of customization to the weapons. Of course any kind of poison mechanic would require that the guns themselves do less damage overall in comparison. Either because of reduced accuracy or because of overall reduced shot damage would be something that would have to be done by people more experience with balance than I am, but I think that either idea would be fun. The problem is making it fun for people playing them without making it boring or taking away from the fun the other faction is having... What do you guys think about the poisoned weapons? or any other Dark Eldar ideas
Honestly at this point i think we'll see them as skins for regular eldar before we get them as an actual race. MICROTRANSACTIONS!
I'm personally a Dark Eldar tabletop player, and a huge fanboy of them in general. Unfortunately I doubt we'll ever see them in Eternal Crusade, but it would really be amazing to see it. Dark Eldar really never get any love, but it's understandable because they're absolutely insane. Not to mention they're definitely far past the pegi 13 category this game is going for. Because y'know, torture and wearing people's faces for clothing isn't exactly teenager friendly. But I'd love to see it. I've put a lot of thought into how Dark Eldar would fit into Eternal Crusade, and I think trying to implement them would be possible, but extremely aggravating. Dark Eldar are an all or nothing army, you either completely dominate the opposition or get wiped off the face of the planet (/tabletop). But in EC they would truly be a force to be reckoned with, although limited in nature. With the current state of the game I can see the following classes and weapons in play.. Kabalite Warrior (Elite/Veteran: Trueborn / Sybarite/ Dracon) Your basic capturing units, capable at close to medium range combat. Acting similarly to Dire Avengers but with weapons more oriented towards ranged combat rather than their close range kin. Their armor is relatively weak and should be easily blasted away by bolters (5+ on TT). Here are a few weapons they could equip.. Splinter rifle: Your basic ranged weapon for the Dark Eldar that shoots crystalline projectiles lined in poison. However.. with the current state of poison in the game this would allow you to dominate almost everyone at range (Which simply isn't fair). To help negate this, perhaps altering poison to cap off the damage poison can do. (Such as poison draining health but only to a point in which the enemy has minimal health remaining.) At the same time the crystalline structure should do light damage to the enemy's shields, albeit very light in damage. This is all speculation, but I think by doing this it would allow them to be very dangerous at range by sapping the enemy's health, but at the same time not make being hit by the Splinter rifle a total death sentence. With this in mind, the splinter rifle in close quarters would be relatively weak (which is good, it shouldn't excel in burst damage) Ammunition: I'd say about a basic 30 round magazine, with 90-150 extra rounds of ammunition. Blaster: On tabletop it's a short ranged weapon usually used for an anti-armor role (It has 'Lance') with a high strength characteristic and low AP value, but also works well at popping terminators and the like. Seeing as how it's not a melta weapon, I think maybe it'd be best implemented as either a plasma rifle-like weapon, or simply make it a charge up weapon similar to the pulse laser on the Falcon grav-tank, but perhaps with a much shorter range. Ammunition: Maybe give it 20-30 shots or so. Shredder: One of the few template weapons Dark Eldar have access to. It's got better strength than an Imperial Guard grenade launcher, but without any AP value. (Really unless you're fighting hordes it's not worth the points IMO) But.. if you really, really wanted to include it in game.. Make it a charge up weapon like the Ork deffcannon but with a significantly smaller blaster radius and reduced damage. But also portable and more maneuverable. Ammunition: Keep the shots low so it doesn't get spammed, probably about 15-30 shots. Splinter Cannon: Lots and lots of shots, firing even more rounds than the Shuriken cannon and heavy bolter (on TT anwyay) all of which are obnoxiously poisoned. It'd serve best as a suppression weapon with the same poison characteristics as listed above for the splinter rifle. Make it heavy and somewhat bulky just like the other heavy weapons, but also making it where it doesn't even plink armored vehicles (In TT it has a strength of 1.) Ammunition: Perhaps a solid overheating mechanic like in place for the other weapons with about 300 rounds of ammunition. Dark Lance: Basically it's -slightly- weaker lascannon (s8 vs s9) with lance (making it better against heavily armored tanks like land raiders and leman russ') I'd be happy just seeing Dark Eldar in game, so if anything it'd fit fine as a lascannon. Although when equipping it the Kabalite should lose their close quarters weapon and pistol just like devastator (for fairness/balance) Ammunition: Just like the Lascannon with 20-30 shots that cause the weapon to briefly overheat. Plasma Grenades: Generic and just like normal Eldar plasma grenades. No real changes other than perhaps UI cosmetics. Close Combat Weapon: A basic combat knife, much like that of all the other factions. No real changes other than cosmetics. Splinter Pistol: Pretty much make it like a baby splinter rifle with reduced range, but still being deadly by being able to drain someone's health while only doing minor damage to their shields. Ammunition: 10-15 shots of splinter shots, maybe a total of 30-45 extra rounds in reserve. Blast Pistol: Filling a similar role to the blaster but with the same strength and damage but less range. I think it'd probably need a charge up time just like the blaster would. Simply shooting out a single powerful beam capable of denting or penetrating a tank's armor. Ammunition: 5-10 shots would help limit the weapon I think. Scourge (Elite/Veteran: Solarite) And this is where shit gets excessive/challenging.. On tabletop Scourge are devastators with wings. They deep strike in behind your pretty little land raider and blast it with four haywire blasters. Trying to balance these guys out would probably be insanely difficult. I can see them having the same flight style as Swooping hawks, but it might be too overpowered with all the weapon choices they get. Unlike their Kabalite kin they get slightly better armor (a whopping 4+ with a 6++) so they should be a bit tougher to kill but not by much. For the sake of keeping things balanced and fair, I think altering their flight style to be more like jump marines would be fitting. But lets look at some of their ridiculous weapon options.. Shardcarbine: Your basic splinter weapon with slightly less range than a normal splinter rifle, but also with an additional shot and the ability to charge into close combat (18" assault 3). Honestly it'd be easier just to make this not be part of the game. But if you really want to.. just make it a slightly faster firing splinter rifle that's a little more inaccurate. Ammunition: Maybe just like the splinter rifle with 30 shots per magazine, a total of 120-150 extra rounds. Heatlance: One of the more obnoxious weapons Scourge get. It's got a little less range than a multi-melta and less strength than other melta weapons, but also benefits from lance. This could easily be implemented as another melta weapon with less damage than the fusion gun/melta gun but a little more length to it's shooting. It's also an assault weapon so it should be fairly mobile much like basic weapons in the game currently. Ammunition: Similar to the other melta weapons with just as much charge. Haywire Blaster: The weapon of champions. These things are the way to go in tabletop and utterly obnoxious to boot. They could be implemented simply by creating a weapon that charges up to shoot a haywire beam. I'd say keep it like the haywire grenades currently in-game, doing little to no damage but stopping a tank in it's tracks. It'd be a really mean combination with heatlances. Against infantry it should do some damage, but I could live with it doing nothing to them. Ammunition: To help limit it's spam, give it only 15-20 rounds of ammunition. Dark Lance: Exactly the same as listed for the Kabalite warrior. But I could totally see it being removed from Kabalites and instead just given to Scourges, or vice versa. But having it for both could add some versatility to the faction in-game. But it might be super annoying having flying lascannons jumping into all kinds of crazy hiding spots. Ammunition: Same as the lascannon 25-30 shots with overheating. Splinter Cannon: Just like the entry I added for the Kabalite warriors, but it might be good just to leave it to the kabalites. Otherwise there'll be flying heavy bolters of douchery (Which while it's very, very dark eldar, might royally bone balance) Ammunition: Same as added for the Kabalites. Wych (Elite/Veteran: Hekatrix / Bloodbride / Syren) Your generic melee unit wearing almost no armor except for some crazy leather bondage suits (Giving them an as expected 6+ save). On tabletop they're really great at tying up units in close combat by just being there and being annoying (they get a 4++ invuln save in close combat, making them decently survivable against power weapons and such) Yet they lack any truly powerful weapons, with the exception being an agonizer for the Hekatrix/Syren. In game I can see them being much like banshees if not a bit more (Maybe a base of 4 stamina and a max of 6) for lots of dodging to keep them alive. They should be incredibly weak and easily gunned down by bolters and ranged weapons. Here are some of the weapons I think they should have.. Splinter Pistol: Same as listed above for the Kabalite warriors. Blast Pistol: Same as listed above for the Kabalite warriors. Close Combat Weapon: Same as other close combat weapons for other factions, basic knives and the like. Nothing different except cosmetics. Haywire Grenades: Exactly the same as haywire grenades for Swooping Hawks. Plasma Grenades: Same as listed above for Kabalites, the same as that for Eldar. Phantasm Grenade Launcher: Honestly this is best to just be excluded. In tabletop it serves as a blast weapon that forces a leadership test and kills people if the test is failed (totally useless against LSM). But.. if you really want to add it, you could make it similar to the Banshee scream but only having the suppression effect. (I'd just say leave it out). Shardnet and Impaler: Another hard addition that would be difficult to put into the game. It's literally an old gladiator styled weapon consisting of a short spear and a barbed net. If this is equipped the unit carrying it loses their pistol, as it's two weapons. However in TT they get to re-roll 1's in close combat and get an extra attack for having two CCW's (close combat weapons). If you really wanted to add this, you could make it wear they fling the net out with a left click. Perhaps this acts as a tether, keeping the two players locked together and stuck in close combat. It could prevent swooping hawks and jump assaults from flying away, which might be cool. Regardless the Impaler isn't a power weapon so it's not going to be the strongest thing out there, serving just like a normal knife of sorts but looking way cooler. Perhaps while they're stuck together in this 'duel' of sorts, neither side can dodge or roll (which would probably screw the Wych over if they're fighting something like power weapons) but might benefit them if they were fighting normal troops. Hydra Gauntlets: A pair of gauntlets lined with crystalline blades and spikes, in TT they have 'Shred' which means they re-roll to wound in close combat. Additionally Hydra gauntlets always come in pairs, so the bearer has to get rid of their pistol. Perhaps to give this weapon some punch it should serve much like a normal close combat weapon but perhaps do a bit extra damage, or even strike faster as it's two weapons. Maybe left click does another attack? This might be difficult. Razorflails: In lore Razorflails are bizarre looking weapon that look like a flimsy sword that can be whipped around loosely or made to hold a sword like shape. On tabletop they have a special rule giving them the ability to re-roll to hit wounds in close combat. The best bet for implementing this, would be making it a normal close combat weapon that strikes extra fast. Powersword: A generic powersword usually sporting a cool-guy curved blade. It could in theory act as the same as the powerswords of the other races, just with some reduced strength. (Dark Eldar are strength 3, unlike Space Marine strength 4.) Agoniser: A truly painful close combat weapon that's usually like a barbed whip (but can take different forms). On TT it has 4+ poison attacks at AP 3, making it eat through unfortunate Space Marines. This could serve just like the Orks "'Urty Needle" or the Space Marine Narthecium, giving the Wych wielding it poisoned attacks in close combat. This undoubtedly will be a hard weapon to balance, as it's essentially a poisoned power weapon, and should theoretically shred normal power armor. Unfortunately this forums has a post limit, so beneath this will be Part Two!
Haemonculus Normally an HQ unit, but undoubtedly the closest thing to a healer/support that the Dark Eldar have besides maybe a Lhamaean (which I can't see having a role in this game). Haemonculi have a deplorable save of 6+ without upgrades, but also come with 1 toughness higher than other Dark Eldar. Theoretically they should get obliterated in a ranged fight, and be downright shredded by bolters and the like. They should have some neat little upgrades, but really would be best served in a supporting role. In tabletop they get a metric shit ton of toys to play with, but I think in EC they should be limited to a few. But we'll go over all of them for the sake of fun. Tools of Torment: Stinger Pistol: Just like all the other splinter pistols. Hex Rifle: A sniper rifle of sorts that literally shoots small crystal cylinders full of plague samples and other twisted shit. Honestly I think if this is going to be implemented it, just make it like a splinter rifle with a better scope that has better poison damage but less ammunition, maybe like 10 shots per magazine. If they take this weapon I think the user should be limited to only a splinter pistol and CCW for their secondary. Liquifier gun: A template weapon on tabletop with variable AP value. En masse they can be absolutely devastating against squads of terminators or space marines, as you're bound to roll a 1 or 2 for AP value if you have six of them. It acts much like a flame thrower, spitting out some vile acidic blood that's just truly nasty. If you wanted to include this in the game you could make it much like a poisoned flame thrower, just throwing out a big cone of green goo that causes anyone in it's wake to take loads of poison damage. If they take this weapon I think the user should be limited to only a splinter pistol and CCW for their secondary. Weapons of Torture: Mindphase Gauntlet: A close combat weapon that basically causes concussive, nothing all that great (unless you're fighting Daemons or other high initiative enemies like Eldar). If you wanted to add this in game it could do something simple like Power Mauls and stun/concuss the enemy. But of course it should be significantly weaker, it's only strength 3 on a Haemonculus. Flesh Gauntlet: The Dark Eldar version of the 'Urty Syringe. It's a gauntlet adorned with all kinds of syringes and crazy looking crap that's meant to poison the foe. You could literally make it just like the 'Urty Syringe and it'd be golden. Scissorhand: Edward doesn't have shit on this. Not only did the Dark Eldar steal his fingers, but then they drenched them in poison to boot. These weapons are just like they sound, but in tabletop they have a 4+ poison and have rending (meaning they ignore armor on 6's to wound). These would be pretty nasty in close combat, perhaps going along the same lines as the Flesh Gauntlet/Urty Syringe but also with an added boost to taking out armor. Agoniser: Same as listed above for the the Wyches. Artefacts of Cruelty: The Parasite's Kiss: Basically it's a poisoned pistol that steals health from the enemy. Kind of dickish but that's how Dark Eldar roll. Maybe make it just like a splinter pistol but add the life-steal to it somehow. Alternatively you could make this an elite weapon available in a 30,000pt box, but it might be excessive. Limiting it to just the Haemonulus would keep it contained and under control. The Armour of Misery: In the codex the Armour of Misery gives the bearer a 4+ armor save and 6++ invuln, basically acting as a better armor supplement. But it also reduces enemy leadership by 2 if they're within a certain distance. I'd say just add this to a 30,000pt box and make it Haemonculus only. It'll make them a little more survivable by increasing their armor to something decent. The Animus Vitae: This item resembles a smooth orb, it's basically thrown at an opponents feet where it consumes their soul in a mess of twisted, razor sharp vines and sentences them to an eternity of agony. On tabletop it's a thrown grenade that buffs your entire army if it kills someone. For EC this could just serve as a healing grenade like Orks that also causes poison damage to anyone who wanders into it. The Archangel of Pain: Another leadership debuff on tabletop, and it probably doesn't really belong or fit into the game. The Helm of Spite: Mostly used against Psykers (which aren't heavily in the game except for Sorcs and Farseers). If you wanted to add it in as an upgrade, it could maybe cause a pysker's attack to backfire against them. But.. it's a rare HQ option so it might just be best to exclude it. The Djinn blade: In my opinion one of the worst Dark Eldar HQ options, I'd say just leave it out of the game. But.. it's basically a power sword that grants 2 extra attacks but runs the risk of bitch slapping the user with no saving throws allowed. If you did want to add it, I suppose it could just be a normal power sword that swings a bit faster. Other: Ossefactor: This is a particularly twisted weapon that literally causes an enemy to explode in a gory soup which sends their bones shooting outwards like spears towards nearby friendlies. In the codex it can only be taken by wracks, but I think it could be repurposed to serve the Haemonculus, but not only as a weapon but as a healing tool. I can see it serving as a short range weapon similar to a fusion pistol that builds up 'affliction/poison' on an enemy, or heals friendlies. To keep it from being rapidly spammed it should have an overheat. Powersword: If you're trying to get into someone's face as a Haemonculus, you're probably using it wrong. (You should've just gotten an Archon or a Succubus) But if you really want to give them powerswords you can. But I honestly think they'd be fine with what they have. POWER FROM PAIN! Power from pain is a special rule exclusive to the Dark Eldar on tabletop. It basically reflects their sadism and is essentially as vital for them as the 'Waaagh' is for Orks. Without PFP (Power From Pain) Dark Eldar aren't all that special beyond some cool guy models. PFP used to function in 6th edition and previously on a unit for unit basis. Basically for each enemy unit, that a Dark Eldar squad killed they would get what was known as a 'pain token'. Each pain token gave them more and more buffs so they became progressively tougher throughout the game. However, in 7th edition PFP changed to become turn based. Instead all Dark Eldar units with the PFP rule gain bonuses for every game turn that passes. Here's the current PFP list.. Turn 1: Nothing, they're totally normal. Turn 2: Feel no Pain (FNP) (6+) : Basically on the roll of a 6+ your unit can ignore a wound (assuming it wasn't double their toughness) Turn 3: FNP (5+) : Same as before but now on a 5+ Turn 4: FNP (5+) & Furious charge : Same as before but now Dark Eldar units get +1 strength when charging. Turn 5: FNP, Furious Charge, Fearless : Same as before but now they aren't scared of anything. Turn 6+: FNP, Furious Charge, Fearless, and Rage : Now they get +2 attacks on the charge instead of +1 So how do you implement Power from Pain into the game? I think honestly it should be similar to the Waagh, with the last five minutes of the game providing them a last ditch chance to go all in. Making them run faster would just be stupid unfortunately, as they already should run just as fast as normal Eldar (which is already super fast). Giving them a faster respawn time doesn't seem fitting, nor does removing their downed state. I honestly think the most fitting benefit would be a global increase of all Dark Eldar toughness by 20-30. This would make them somewhat harder to kill, but it wouldn't be too terrible as most of them already have low toughness. Instead they'd go from being squishy Eldar toughness to Space Marine toughness (Just with less armor). Which in the end fills the role FNP does (it makes them harder to kill). I think that'd be a good place to start, but also you could expand on it to make their melee attacks do more damage. But it might be too much. Vehicles Raider Honestly I think this is going to be another challenging spot for adding Dark Eldar. Their vehicles help define them as an Army, and if you're playing Dark Eldar without vehicles you're probably just throwing Grotesques and Wracks at your enemy anyway. Raiders are lightly (like paper bag lightly armored at AV 10 all around) skiffs that fly above the ground much like the way Wave Serpents do. However they are significantly faster and more mobile. They are open topped vehicles meaning troops mounted inside can shoot out at opponents or jump right out and leap into close combat. Better yet they have a fantastic gun mounted on the front (The disintegrator cannon) that's fully capable of shredding armored infantry or can be swapped to a tank popping Dark Lance. To help fit them into the game I think they should be faster than a Wave Serpent, but easily wiped out by heavy bolters and even damaged by regular bolters (It's only AV 10 after all). The hull itself along with the underbelly is usually lined with spikes and crazy looking scythes used for decapitating those too foolish to get in it's path and as such I think it'd be just as annoying for running over enemy troops (if not more so). But at least it'd feel more understanding. Their armament should consist stock of a disintegrator cannon, which is pretty much a rapid fire plasma gun that's slightly weaker (S5 instead of S7). Without a doubt it'd be one of the most powerful transport guns in the game as it could obliterate enemy infantry but still do little damage to tanks. I also believe they should have firing points, (as the Orks should have as well) which could begin as just different weapon positions that shoot out basic splinter rifle shots that overheat similarly to the storm bolter on the Rhino. But even if this couldn't be added, I'd be happy. Ravager The Ravager is a gunboat variant of the Raider, loaded with three gun positions that come stock with disintegrator cannons that can be upgraded to Dark Lances. Seeing as how all the other factions/races have anti-infantry tanks, I think triple disintegrator cannons would be perfect for early implementation. Essentially it'd be the same thing as a Raider with slightly better armor (AV11 vs AV10) meaning it can't be plinked by standard bolters. It'd be pretty nasty seeing one of these cruising around the battlefield laying down fire everywhere, utterly annihilating any enemy infantry wandering into it's fire arc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Further Poison Ideas So after throwing some ideas around I think I've thought up another decent idea for poison (which is the main weapon of the Dark Eldar). Instead of directly damaging the opponents health, perhaps it should simply reduce their health and toughness by about 20-40% Similar to how jink causes opponents to take more damage. Afterwards the splinter rifles can just act as weaker shuriken weapons (albeit with better range). --------------------------------------------------------------------------- All in all I'd really love to see Dark Eldar implemented into Eternal Crusade, they're my favorite faction and never get any love. They're something of a rarity even on tabletop, but even more in the other facets of 40k. Thanks again for reading this huge mess! -Doc
Very good point. I'd forgotten Orks were meant to be able to do that. I suppose the same mechanism that has jump troops attached to walls could be implemented for all Orks on their vehicles, then reduce the numbers on the inside to compensate (basically you can be safe inside, or shoot things outside).
Love it, and i love the PFP but i would implement it by tying it to a different place. If you tied it to total overall deaths, and basically set to reach 100% after a certain(respectable amount) of deaths the Buff happens. I would also make Dark Eldar deaths count for a higher percentage, so opponent deaths trigger 1% but allied deaths trigger 2%, that way they still get the buff close to the end of the game, but if they're struggling they get the buff sooner, I also forgot how horrible the Scourges would be to balance. Those might have to be Elites or something. If we gave heavy weapons to a purpose built class like, i dunno, Kabalite Specialists. Then made the basic jump class the Hellion, we could save the Scourges to one of the elite classes you had to unlock somehow with limited spawns per match that would let them keep the typical scourge heavy weapon w/ wings style of annoying people while you kill them
Jesus thats some time into that suggestion. Ill have to read it at length sometime. But, food for thought. At the point the DE get added into the game, I would hope to god that factions become more and more united rather than splintered. I'm all for some faction civil war here and there, but I have no doubt that the Dark Eldar would arrive when the SMs become the IoM with Sisters and Inquisitors, maybe even IG NPCs, and Chaos gets Demons and NPC heretics. That's obviously a lot to ask for, but realistically, unless the Eldar somehow are allowed to ally themselves to the Dark Eldar (and Harlequins, corsairs and exodites... Because why not?) I definitely see it being a problem with the DE being TOTALLY seperate from the faction. That said, I still want to beat the piss out of some dark kin and vs versa in probably some of the most intense battles ever fought online.
