I've tried Vulkan on TT briefly, (A Mini-game of sorts.) and while he's not a complete destroyer, he definantly crushes due to hitting hard and taking alot, alot of punishment. Well, fighting other Primarchs that is. But it's not that wise to use him like that and 1v1 people, as you say, he's a great support and boost Primarch aswell. That's what I think you said though. They're great support to the armies, great leaders. Matches the purpose they were created for. Lorgar's the weakest Primarch, even though he's a monster now. Course, we're talking now and not HH, so my money would be on Lorgar aswell. A 1v1 and I think Abaddon would be torn apart. Pretty damn sure he would. Khorne would most likely intervene in some way if there was a 1v1 with one of his Champions against another Favored Champion. Even more so, if they individual was losing. Didn't he flip shit when In-fighting begun between the Champions of Khorne, because they would spill much less blood if they fought eachother?
I don't know what rose colored glasses you are reading the rules with... Guilliman is down right average compared to the other Primarchs imo. He is absolutely an endurance Primarch which makes sense with adding 1 to Ws for each round of combat up to 10 in challenges but he has to last that long. Either face him with a higher initiative character killer like Konrad or use Lorgar's 3+ summoning to bog him down so much he can't get far enough in to actually challenge anything A charging Konrad for example with an Assault 3 pistol ignoring armor and inv on 6s plus base 5 attacks +1 for dual wielding and d3 hammer of Wrath could def take out Guilliman before he gets to a high enough Ws for it to matter since he is a higher Initiative. I would even rather have a transfigured Lorgar summoning at 3s instead of 4s based purely on stat lines I still think he is very average, everyone else has their strengths and weaknesses but he seems kind of like the base line for Primarch stats WS BS S T W I A Ld SvHorus: 8 5 7 6 6 6 5+1 10 2+/3++ Angron: 9 5 7 6 5 7 6+1 10 3+/4++ Fulgrim: 8 6 6 6 6 8 5 10 2+/5++/3++ in CC Mortarion: 7 5 6 7 7 5 5 10 2+/4++ Ferrus Manus: 7 6 7 7 6 5 5 10 2+/3++ Konrad Curze: 8 6 6 6 6 7 5+1 10 2+/4++ Vulkan: 7 5 7 7 6 5 4 10 2+/3++ Lorgar: 6 6 6 6 5 6 4+1 10 2+/4++ Perturabo: 8 6 7 6 6 5 4 10 2+/3++ Rogal Dorn: 8 5 6 6 6 5 4 10 2+/4++ Corvus Corax: 7 6 6 6 6/5 7 6/5 10 2+/5++ or 3+/5++ Alpharius: 7 7 6 6 6 6 5 10 2+/4++ Guilliman: 7 6 6 6 6 6 4+1 10 2+/4++ As for his special rules... Your opponent has to reroll to sieze the initiative- very gimmicky and will be very rarely useful. Your opponents 16% chance drops to 2%... woo? +1 WS up to 10 in challenges is nice but not too hard to avoid as stated above. +1 to Ld to a max of 10 for all Ultramarines I'd rather have Konrad's fear rule or Lorgar's ignore fear rule for their respective legions. The Armor of Reason is nice but it is only on a failed invuln save when he is at a 2+ armor save for most attacks and it doesn't work on anything that ignores invuln saves. His melee weapons are nice but nothing spectacular compared to the rest of the Primarchs. It is very nice that he gets to choose which to use in each combat phase. I'd rather have him than say Corax or Vulkan but I'd get much more use out of Konrad or Lorgar than I will get out of him so again he isn't the best he isn't the worst he is average which is what I said. In the lore from Forgeworld and the Black Library, I still maintain him being average as far as warfare goes. His exceptional skills are in politics and logistics rather than combat while still being decent in a fight. When he attacked Lorgar on Nuceria, they were very equally matched. Iirc Guilli punched Lorgar in the sternum causing massive internal bleeding but Lorgar hit him in the face with his power maul cracking half of his skull. Lorgar was empowered by the dark gods by that point but was generally considered one of the weaker Primarchs in terms of actual strength. Then he gets straight up bloodied after he breaks one of Angron's skulls.
Abaddon will fold you and so called loyalist champions like origami and sell off your private parts in a blister pack at the $2 shop for charity.
The rules you just posted prove my point completely. That and him being able to re roll after each phase makes him top tier
I've never really considered the state of the TT when considering the strengths of Primarchs I'll be honest. I find it a little bit limiting compared to the lore of the books. Strength is subjective.
We clearly have very different views of his rules. I don't consider any special rules I listed as "top tier." I also don't think anyone can argue against his statline being extremely average. Horus, Curze, Fulgrim, Alpharius, Corvax, and Pertabo all have straight up better statlines than Guilliman and the rest have a mix of better/worse. I don't consider him "top tier" IN REGARDS TO COMBAT in either the books or the TT. And Cypher who made a complete fool out of him.
But you also get the opposite problem with table top, where the rules are all too static. Are Word Bearers going to use cult troops on table top? No, do they use cult troops in the actual setting? probably all the time.
GUILLIMANS resilience is amazing. Re rolling 4++ each phase plus he ignores concussive. His weapons are very impressive and his ws increases. These three things alone make him second or third best as of now
