(Be sure to read A Treatise on Loadout Point Costs: Armor as well!) Hello and welcome, whether you be brother, heretic, or xeno. I wanted to start a thread on something that has been on my mind for some time now: Loadout Point (LP) costs of items, their value, diminishing returns, and other such thoughts. Initially I wanted to do just one blanket post on wargear, trinkets, armor, accessories (e.g. ammo packs, grenade bundles), side arms, primary weapons, and warp powers, but I realize now that would be a pretty huge post to do. Therefore, I’ll be breaking it up into different sections as I see fit… this one is for all the wargear available. In an effort to make this as comprehensive as possible, I will be breaking up this post into five major sections: General (items or equivalents shared by all/multiple factions), Loyalist Space Marines (LSM), Eldar, Chaos Space Marines (CSM), and Orks. I will tell you now: While I play every faction, I main LSM, so everything I say will be skewed through an LSM’s eyes. I may go into great detail with my own faction’s items, and only add as a side note: “And such-and-such equivalents.” So without further delay, let us begin. @NoahWard , I invite you to take a look as well. General Wargear – Available to Two or More Factions A lot of the higher end wargear (for all factions) suffers from some pretty bad diminishing returns, making stacking defense somewhat undesirable, since putting the same points in a better weapon or mods could increase your DPS a lot more than the defense items could mitigate someone else’s. If that makes sense. A lot of people also believe that you just plain don’t get enough ‘bang for your buck’ as far as LP : HP/Armor is concerned, and that may very well be true. But for the sake of this, let’s assume that the first level of wargear items is ‘fair’ for the LP value. So let’s review some wargear. Minor Armor Wargear – 50 LP +12 armor So not too bad right? A measly 50 LP. Each point of armor would be worth about 4.2 LP. Compare it to the major and minor armor trinkets (which is 30 LP for +7 armor) and it seems to be pretty inline. No foul here. Let’s move on to one of its bigger brothers. Major Armor Wargear – 150 LP +25 armor This is where we start seeing the diminishing returns kick in. For roughly double the armor, you pay triple the price as the previous wargear. It may be better valued at 120 LP like its stamina and armor regen brothers. For this, each point of armor is worth 6 LP. Is this a fair amount of diminishing returns? It might be, if the more expensive wargear items followed suit. Mega Armor Wargear – 400 LP +40 armor Note: These are the Iron Halos and their equivalents… in case that wasn’t obvious enough. Now this is where people really start complaining. Only +15 armor more than the previous wargear, for a whopping 250 more LP. Each point of armor is now worth 10 LP, which frankly isn’t worth it. As it stands now, you’d be better off getting the +25 armor wargear and adding all the health and armor trinkets for a combined Armor/HP of +17. And that would cost only 80 LP, just over a quarter of the additional LP cost from an Iron Halo. If they wanted to keep the diminishing returns (which is debatable), then a more fair cost would be 300 LP. This would translate as each point of armor being worth 7.5 LP. Minor HP Wargear – 50 LP +15 HP Pretty similar to the +12 armor wargear that I touched on earlier. A tad more HP, but of course it does not regenerate on its own. This can be both better and worse than the armor wargear, as while the armor wargear will increase your overall regenerating armor, which is good for cover-based firefights, the HP wargear would be better where you have healing support, a HoT (Heal over Time), or lifesteal. Anyway, at 3.3 LP cost per HP, it’s a fair cost. Major HP Wargear – 150 LP +32 HP For this you get a tad more than double the HP from the weaker wargear, but for three times the cost. Similar to the +25 armor wargear, and with the same upsides/downsides I touched on previously. At 4.7 LP per HP, it isn’t too bad as far as diminishing returns go, although it may also be served by a drop to 120 LP. Minor Stamina/Armor Regen Delay Wargears – 50 LP 15% Faster Stamina Regen or Armor Regen Delay These are pretty solid if you can’t afford anything better. For such a minor cost, you can still feel the difference. Considering the 5% trinkets are 20 LP, the cost is in your favor. Major Stamina/Armor Regen Delay Wargears – 120 LP 30% Faster Stamina Regen or Armor Regen Delay Now this is a pretty fair LP cost hike. You get twice the value of the previous tier of wargear for a nominal price increase to factor in diminishing returns. Minor Stamina Wargear – 120 LP +1 Stamina While the value of stamina has been debated in recent times, 120 LP for +1 Stamina is a pretty good price if you believe it’s worth it; and if you don’t, you likely don’t use it anyway. Major Stamina Wargear – 240 LP +2 Stamina A direct upgrade from the previous stamina wargear. Twice the increase for twice the cost. No diminishing returns here, and it’s probably one of the fairest trades you’ll get as far as value is concerned. However, the effectiveness of additional stamina itself in the current meta has been debated by a fair few individuals, and I won’t be touching on that. New - Fuel Increase Wargear – 150 LP +1 Fuel Similar to the Minor Stamina Wargear, this item is available across all factions for their "jump troops." Eldar start with one fuel, and everyone else starts with two, and something that makes this item unique is that there is one available in both Wargear slots 1 and 2. Therefore it is possible to get three and four fuel, respectively. Since the jump troops gain a lot more mobility for their fuel as opposed to everyone else's stamina, the developers seem to have seen fit to make this wargear a bit higher. Or they forgot to lower it when they reduced the cost of the other Stamina items. Either explanation is possible. Either way, due to the increased mobility the extra fuel affords, this seems to be a fair enough exchange. New - Fuel Regen Wargear – 150 LP 20% Faster Fuel Regen Just like its +Fuel counterpart, this item can be placed in either slot, or stacked in both for a total of +40% regen. However, unlike its counterpart, this item is both worse and more expensive than its Stamina regen analogues. That seems a bit unfair, yeah? The Major Stamina Wargear gives +30% for only 120 LP. This item is a third less effective and a fifth more expensive. Don't get me wrong, it can still be effective; especially if you stack on both for that 40%, but it still seems unfair. You're already paying more, why should you also get less? Especially when the +1 Fuel is only more expensive, instead of being less effective. Would "jump troops" be too "overpowered" otherwise? Some might think so with the extra mobility they would gain from an increase. But mobility is their whole shtick. Charge Regen Wargear – 150 LP +20% Charge Regen Now, I’m not as familiar with sorcery as you witches and abominations gifted ladies and gentlemen, but this appears to be a fair cost for what it advertises as. A little more expensive than +30% Armor/Stamina Wargears for 10% less effect, but this is more direct and present than those, since it is used as a primary means of healing/damage. But feel free to let me know if you think this is a fair LP price for the regen. Perhaps it would be a better value if it was brought up to 30% or the price dropped to 120 LP? Charge Increase Wargear – 150 LP +25 Charge This one is a bit more straightforward than the regen, as it gives a direct buff to your total warp pool. As it is equal in price/value to the Major Armor Wargear, and increases your warp pool by 25%, I don’t have any problem identifying this as a fair value. Loyalist Space Marine Only Wargear Veteran/Specialized Iron Halos – 600 LP These are probably a bit more worth it than the standard Iron Halo, but the cost is so prohibitive that you rarely see it even on a veteran character. Let’s briefly go over each of them in turn. Iron Halo of the Adept (Tactical Halo) +50 Armor 20% Faster Armor Regen Delay So let’s do the easy one first. +20% Armor Regen Delay is worth 70 LP (Minor Wargear + Major Trinket). The rest of the 530 LP is just for the armor. At that cost, each armor point is worth 10.6 LP. A ratio even worse than the normal iron halo. Reducing the LP cost to something around 450 LP (7.6 LP per Armor point) would go far to make this more worth it. However, if that is done, limiting these (including all the latter halos I will be going over in a moment) to a Veteran character only may be the best course of action. Iron Halo of the Celestial (Jump Pack Assault Halo) +50 Armor 20% Faster Fuel Regen Delay Pretty much copy/paste what I said about the above halo, but replace “Armor Regen” with “Fuel Regen”. However, since the +20% Fuel Regen is a 150 wargear in and of itself, you’re basically getting a better Iron Halo for 450 LP. Still a little pricey, but one of the better halos. Bringing it down to 500-550 LP might help. Iron Halo of the Stalwart (Ground Assault Halo) +60 Armor 20% Faster Armor Regen Delay Basically a better version of the Tactical halo; should be around 500 LP for its value. Iron Halo of the Assailant (Devastator Halo) +40 Armor +20 Toughness This basically combines an Iron Halo (400 LP) with an Eldar’s Durable/Dark Spirit Stone (150 LP) for a 50 LP price hike to 600 LP. If the lesser items were actually worth it in LP cost, it might be a pretty fair trade, but as it stands, we already know the Iron Halo isn’t worth the 400 LP. 500 LP sounds more reasonable. Iron Halo of the Savior (Apothecary/Wolf Priest Halo) +40 Armor +20 Health Even worse than the previous halo, this one is a regular Iron Halo (400 LP), a Minor Health Wargear (50 LP) and a Major Health Trinket (20 LP). Like its Tactical brother, this halo should really be 450 LP for the value it provides. Edit: Added a couple items I had forgotten before.
Eldar Only Wargear Rejuvenating Banshee Icon – 250 LP +1 Stamina 30% Faster Stamina Regen Now this is a pretty good deal. Only available to Eldar Banshess AFAIK, it basically gives you two 120 LP wargear in one for the price of 250 LP. A small 10 LP price hike is a fair enough price to pay, but I really believe it should be 240 LP. If they want to reward Eldar-like playstyles, I’d even support it being 200 LP. Crimson Banshee Icon – 250 LP +2 Stamina 15% Faster Stamina Regen Once again a really great deal, and once again available to Eldar Banshess only. Not only does this give you the +2 Stamina wargear valued at 240 LP, it also gives you a 50 LP, 15% Stamina Regen wargear essentially for free. This is a great value for a wargear item, and I dare say more wargear items should share in this kind of value; especially if it’s designed to influence a player towards a faction’s lore-friendly playstyle (e.g. Eldar fast and agile). Durable/Dark Spirit Stones – 150 LP +20 Toughness As we will eventually discuss lower to the bottom, this is essentially a weaker, more expensive version of the Ork’s Boss Plate. You might also consider it a half-strength MoN with no downside. But the Ork’s is still better. Is this a deliberate design choice to promote Orks being tougher? Maybe. Against low penetration (80 Pen) weapons, this will provide your Dark Reaper or Fire Dragon up to 16% mitigation (up from their normal 9%). That much additional mitigation is essentially the same as about +21 Armor/HP against low penetration weapons only (for a total of about +48 Armor/HP total for that 16% mitigation). Depending on what your enemy has, this extra toughness could potentially save you, or do absolutely nothing. So the value varies widely. Although honestly, you’re probably better off trying for a Major Health or Armor Wargear if one is available to you. Invocation of Kurnous – 300 LP +25% Run Speed +15% Sprint Speed I couldn’t really find any mention of this, or its LP cost on the forums, but I vaguely remember somebody remarking that the “Dark Reaper run speed wargear” was… I think… around 300 LP? So I’ll base it off of that until someone can correct me. Okay so, as the Mark of Slaanesh is a 33%/15% Run/Sprint increase to apparently bring them up to par with Eldar movement speed, this should make Dark Reapers even faster compared to their kin. Could be worth it to get heavy weapons into position quickly, but it has a pretty steep LP cost. The problem is, it’s pretty hard to gauge the value of something this intangible. Does anyone have any stories about how this wargear has helped them? Edit: So one of my field agents (hue hue) has provided me with some additional information to help me really gauge the cost of this item, and through it, others as well. Apparently Dark Reapers do not get the innate Eldar speed buff the other factions do ("Slow and Purposeful," perhaps?), and instead get +20 Toughness. The Toughness wargear for Eldar is valued at 150 LP for that amount, so if we subtract that from this, it seems Eldar speed is valued at approximately 150 LP. He also has seemed to indicate that, yes, this wargear can be useful in changing positions, keeping up with allies, etc., so I suppose the price could be, maybe, considered fair. But as I said earlier, this is one of the more... nebulous items, as far as quantifying goes. Obscuring Spirit Stone – 150 LP? I’ll be honest, I have no idea what this really does. The flavor text in the advancement tree talks about increasing the stealth capabilities of the Striking Scorpion, but has no stats. I also can’t find/get any information on the LP cost… the only thread I came across is someone saying it disappeared after being bought. So for now, I can’t weigh in on this. Edit: This has been confirmed by several people as being an advancement that simply "disappears" after it is bought. Is this intentional? Is this just a passive upgrade? It would feel strange, as no other class has any passive upgrades. Chaos Space Marine Only Wargear Totem of Dedication – 150 LP 20% Faster Stamina Regen Available only to Chaos Traitor Assaults, the mere existence of this wargear is an offense. And not because it’s drenched in heresy either… but because its value is so horrible. You could get the same effect with the Minor Stamina Regen Wargear and the Major Stamina Regen Trinket for just 70 LP. Half the cost, exactly the same benefit. Do not use this. If it’s supposed to be a special item for this melee class, then it needs to be reduced to 50 LP to really be worth it. Mark of Nurgle – 150 LP +35 Toughness 60% Slower Stamina Regen Now all the marks, Nurgle included, offer an interesting pro/con system. Unfortunately, they aren’t always worth it. Mark of Nurgle may very well be one of those. For just 150 LP, you get a nice chunk of toughness: 35. And while the effectiveness of toughness and its worth is hotly debated, if it wasn’t for the downside, this would be a pretty good deal. But as I said, the downside really brings down the value of this. I haven’t really tested this, but I believe it takes roughly 3 seconds to regen one bar of stamina. With this it takes 60% longer, or I believe, about 4.8 seconds. That might not sound like a whole lot of difference, but in a video game, a mere second can be an eternity. In that 1.8 seconds, someone could kill you, and your toughness probably won’t save you. However, as the value of stamina in the current meta is also hotly debated, it’s hard to place the value of this mark. But it seems -60% stamina regen is too high a trade off for 35 toughness, considering two +30% stamina regens (no, I’m not saying you can stack them) would be worth 240 LP. Hmm… Edit: I'm going to take another look at this, since some members requested a more in-depth analysis of the marks. So from my thread on Armor, we decided that the +35 Toughness from Relic Armor is worth about 200 LP. And from here, that +60% Stamina regen would be worth 240 LP. Therefore, I'm forced to place the value of the MoN at -40 LP. Mark of Khorne – 150 LP +0.1 (10%) Ranged Lifesteal +0.2 (20%) Melee Lifesteal Cannot carry healing items Cannot be healed by sorcery No downed state Ah, my favorite mark. Not because it’s the best, but because I am biased towards the Blood God (no heresy here, I swear). This would promote an interesting playstyle if you could use it as intended. However, the piddly lifesteal amounts just don’t really do the mark justice. If you were to kill a target with ranged from full to dead (let’s assume they have the base 100/200 Armor/HP), that’s only 30 HP of healing. Enough to give you the edge in a straight up slugfest where both targets just blast into each other with similar HP, skill, and weapons, but not enough to really keep you going for more than a fight. Is it worth it? Mmmmmaybe. If you rotate between forward and rear positions. But as that’s the only way you can be healed short of a crate or a friendly ally with a healing item, it leaves something to be desired. But wait, what’s that? Khorne favors melee? That may well be true, so let’s take a look at the melee lifesteal. Twice as good, so you could potentially get 60 HP from a fight. That’s half a melee hit, or a couple bolter rounds. Might be enough if you’re really good, but it really shines in conjunction with the melee lifesteal mods… which heal a lot more anyway. With both you could be brought back from the brink after just a hit or two. But alone, the mark leaves much to be desired, as do most of the chaos marks. Oh, and you have no downed state, which could be good or bad depending on your view on getting rescued/executed. But because of that, and since melee lifesteal mods are only 100 LP anyway, better, and don’t prevent healing/downstate, this mark really needs something to make it more worth it. Edit: I'm going to take another look at this, since some members requested a more in-depth analysis of the marks. So, I still don't have everything I really need for this one, but I'll do what I can. Let's have the inability to carry healing items valued at 50 LP, the inability to be healed at... 100 LP (I usually have, on average, two sorcerers try to heal my MoK per life. Sometimes more, sometimes less). And let's just throw the 'no-downed state' in there as well for 'free'. Now, we know that the melee life steal mods are worth 100 LP, and, in my experience, are even more effective than MoK. But still, since it also has ranged life steal as well, we'll say that the MoK life steal is worth 100 LP. So that brings the MoK's value to... -50 LP. Mark of Tzeentch – 150 LP 100% Faster Armor Regen 50% Faster Armor Regen Delay -15% HP (30 HP base) This is probably one of the better marks as long as you can adapt to its playstyle. More prone to being one-shot from a lucky explosion or a strong melee attack, and worse in a straight up fight, but if you can get a good position with cover, you can make the enemy fight through multiple armor bars. Default Armor Regen Delay is 6 seconds; with just this mark, you knock that down to just half of that, being 3 seconds (I think, anyway. Can I get a math check on Aisle Heresy?) Default Armor Regen speed is 0.25/sec (25% that is, otherwise it would take minutes to fully regen your armor at just .25 points per second). With this mark, it’s up to 0.5/sec. What does all this mean? Whereas normally it would take you a full ten seconds to regen your armor from ‘just hit’ to ‘full,’ with this mark it only takes 5 seconds. That means you will have full armor again before the enemy even starts regenerating theirs by a whole second. Anyway, considering 32 HP is worth 150 LP, and 30% + 15% + 5% Armor Regen delay is worth 190 LP (120 + 50 + 20), and you get the +100% Armor Regen, which you can’t even get that much on any Armors… Yeah, it’s worth it. Stack with Warp-Touched or Daemonforged armor for extra win. It also synergizes with the +20 Charge Wargear to squeeze even more juice out of it. Edit: This one is the most complete, but let's see if we can squeeze out a bit more. So already determined that the HP drop is worth -150 LP, and the Regen Delay is worth 190 LP. Already a 40 LP profit. Let's take some values from my Armor thread, take what we learned that the Relic Armor's Armor Regen Speed was worth (+6% = 40 LP), bring it up to around 25%, factoring in some diminishing returns... and I got 200 LP. So the value of this mark, I declare, is around 240 LP. Mark of Slaanesh – 150 LP +33% Run Speed +15% Sprint Speed 50% Slower Armor Regen Delay The most decadent and twisted of the chaos marks (Khorne for life you Slaaneshi freaks), this mark essentially makes you run and sprint at the speed of an Eldar. It also has an interesting synergy with Raptors in that it mirrors the benefit of a +1 Fuel or +20% Fuel Regen in the second wargear slot, essentially doubling it. This makes it almost necessary for a truly agile Raptor build, and I find it a shame that the devs haven’t added more types of this synergy across the Chaos classes. But anyway, other than that it has no further benefits. And it comes at a price of increasing your armor regen delay from 6 seconds (base) to 9 seconds. While it has some worth for Raptors as previously discussed, for any other class, it is debatable. Edit: Last one, let's see... We determined above that the Eldar speed is worth about 150 LP. This one is a bit better than the IoK, so let's make it worth mmm... (-flawed mathing intensifies-) 180 LP. And if 50% Faster Armor Regen Delay is worth 190, then that means the slower delay is worth -190 LP. So it seems the MoS is worth -10 LP. Sigils of [God] – 600 LP Original Mark Stats +40 Armor So this is basically just an Iron Halo equivalent strapped onto the chosen Mark of [God]. In some cases, this synergizes well, like with Tzeentch or Nurgle, for obvious reasons. While for the others, it’s more lackluster. Personally I feel this was a lazy design choice for the developers, and basically making the original marks a more powerful version of themselves, perhaps with minor stat increases, would have been a better choice. Tzeentch could probably remain unchanged, but Nurgle should have more Toughness as its chief factor, with perhaps minor buffs to armor/HP. Khorne could do with a more powerful lifesteal and perhaps some additional health. For Slaanesh I’m not sure, honestly. This might make them worth the 600 LP. As it stands, all these should be valued at 500 LP, since it’s a 400 LP (300 LP value) and a 150 LP item together. Orks Only Wargear Boss Pole – 130 LP +25 Toughness So first I’d like to say I’m not sure if the LP cost is correct… I got it from a helpful member of the community so I’m going to give them the benefit of the doubt, although they may have meant 120 or 150. Anyway, this would bring an Ork to 125 Toughness, which brings it up from 9% to about 19% mitigation against low penetration (80 Pen) weapons. This is equal to about +30 armor/HP against low penetration weapons (or +57 armor/HP from the combined 19% Toughness). Now the first thing you might notice that this is at once both cheaper (apparently) and better than the Eldar equivalents. Trying to promote a certain playstyle? Maybe. This could be worth it if you’re stacking toughness to really get some high mitigation, but it will really only be helpful against those low penetration weapons. Can be worth it, but a Major Health or Armor Wargear would probably be better. Iron Gob – 400 LP +20 Armor +25 Toughness Essentially the Orky version of an Iron Halo, this is a Boss plate and a Minor Armor Wargear + Major Armor Trinket + Minor Armor Trinket in one (130 + 50 + 20 + 10 LP). A 400 LP item with only the value of 210 LP. Yikes, that is frighteningly bad. This either needs to be buffed into being worthwhile, or dropped in price to around 250 – 300 LP. Golden Gob – 600 LP +25 HP +20 Armor +25 Toughness Okay, so here we have an Orky version of the Veteran Iron Halos. So identical to the previous one (210 LP value) with a tacked on 25 Health. To get the health, all we need is a Minor Health Wargear + Major Health Trinket + Minor Health Trinket (50 + 20 + 10 LP). This brings the totally value of the Golden Gob up to a pathetic 290 LP, an even more raw deal than the Iron Gob. Desperately needs to be brought up to par or dropped in price to 400 LP. Look devs, we all get that Orks are bad at math, but taking advantage of them like this is just wrong. Edit: New information added.
This is great and will make me take a look at my loadouts. I would love to see a weapon detail at this level as well!
Eldar also have a 50% charge increase on their howl wargear. Can't remember the LP cost though sorry. Just incase you missed it.
I actually did a post about this. But I dont want a reduction on the prices. I would like a lot more if we could get a buff on those. The main reason is because if the prices are low, then I can grab a powerful weapon and powerful wargear at the same time. Right now we have a lot of problems with the power weapons on all the factions being too cheap for the extra 60 AP, and they can take almost the same wargear that a chainsword user could take.
Yes I did miss that one actually, thanks. I also forgot the jump troop wargear. I will add those soon.
Swooping Hawks have +1 Fuel for top slot, and +1 Fuel for bottom slot, they have 1 fuel baseline. also a 20% increased fuel regen piece in 2nd slot. Just trying to help, this thread should be pinned Here: @Wulf got the stuff Anti-Gravity Supporter: +1 Fuel 150lp Wings of Brilliance: +1 Fuel 150lp Wings of Grace: Fuel Regen Delay 20% Faster 150lp Banshee Piece: Wargear 2 Hyper-Amplifier: Charge Regen: 20% Increase 150lp
