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A reasonable argument

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Dingesskahn, Oct 7, 2016.

  1. Hello!
    I'm a long time fan of warhammer 40k and have been a founder since the day the game was available to be purchased. I have several matters that I wish to address in this post.

    Now.
    I've noticed that the Eldar and Orks are tougher than they should be. Now please know that I understand that they arent THAT soft and should not be underestimated. After all these are enemies of the Imperium that are real threats. Of course their warriors are tough. Its what they do. Orks especially. Though these are boyz and not Nobz that are the equivilant of Marines, I will look over that. Its a game after all.
    I understand that in order to make the game more approachable and fun for everyone things have to be balanced. That's actually pretty agreeable. But when you take that balance but try to stay true to the lore, there are several methods these enemies use that are non condusive to that balance.
    For instance, all four factions have jump attack classes. However, this is offset by the fact that the Striking Scorpion is not only as tough as an assault marine, but can reach a fire position that no one else can. Assault marines can't use bolters and neither can storm boys. This puts them at an advantage that no one faction in the game can match.
    Also the TTK (Time to Kill) on the bolt gun I have noticed seems much longer than that of a shiruken catapult or the stock weapons used by the orks, again putting the other two factions at a disadvantage. That's the way they work in the lore, you say? OK, I agree, that is exactly the way they are supposed to work. Then, I say, in the spirit of staying true to the lore, the .75 caliber bolts used should pack more of a punch. They are supposed to penetrate then detonate within. Well, we can't do that, I hear you say. That's fine. Concessions must be made. But how about the fact that they're supposed to do more penetration, not damage, at longer ranges. I'm sure I could find it written somewhere that once the shell has used its second kicker charge it reaches its full velocity. Then again I could be wrong. I don't have GW source books next to me referencing them.
    Again, we have the hover tanks used by the Eldar, that can turn on a dime, swing around and kill you, and even get on top of your own tank while you are in it. They even have a stealth class, which no other race has. There is no balancing that.
    Also, a side note, the smart pistols don't compensate for the height of the orks. They're too short! (sorry orks. I can't tell you how many times I've tried to help someone locked in melee and shot my ally in the chest/head.) This last bit isn't an argument on balance, just a quirk/bug I've noticed.

    Now listen, this isn't an attack against the orks and the eldar. But it seems to me that the concept of trying to stay true to the lore, and keep things balanced is not really working out. Now guys if you can come at me with some numbers, which I do not have, I will capitulate and apologize. I would just like to argue that if we are going for balance, then we've a long way to go. I know that the game is still hot off the press, but some of these concepts aren't really working for the type of game this is.
    Please keep your responses polite. I'm trying to enjoy the game with you fellas, and look forward to its continued growth.

    Thank you
    JohnnyWayne and Henji like this.
  2. Canis Henji Arkhona Vanguard

    The real issue is that we have a game rushed out if the door and with a planetside size concept worked in their balance wich makes this all the more problematic.

    If BE wants to balance the game, i feel they will have to froget this idea for now and focus in what the game is right now, a Lobby shooter.
    Wreath likes this.
  3. Thana Thana Curator

    Hi! first off welcome back.

    Before we cause anymore confusion lets clear 1 thing up.
    Scorpion and Hawk.jpg
    To the left is a Stricking Scorpion, the "stealth" ambush Eldar for Melee Close Combat, has armour as well protected as Astertes Power Armour. Focus on Close Combat and Ambush. To the Left we have the Swooping Hawk, Eldar high mobile Flying unit that is ment to harass from range, can only have a Dagger for Close Combat, Also the bomber Pigeon from the Eldar. They can Either have Vehicle Stun grenades (late game) or Screen shake Grenades to harass.

    Hawk can go to Places and shoot, Scorpion is limited to all ground unit areas.
  4. Lerdoc Katitof Well-Known Member

    1) We're not playing as regular ork boys, but skar boys, much tougher ones, but not exactly nobz yet.
    2) You've confused Scorpion with Hawk.
    Hawk weapons have lowest DPS in game and hawk is extremely fragile class compared to other factions JPAs. If you see hawk, you'll win ALL shotouts, even if you use pistol because hawk weapon DPS is LOWER then pistol DPS of all non eldar factions.
    3) Eldar have highest DPS for basic weapon, but that applies exclusively for short ranges, mid to long range bolters are superior, because dmg dropoff is less extreme and these weapons are actually accurate. Dire Avengers on top of that have much lower toughness and armor compared to similarly build marines or shootas and shoota is still superior close range weapon because of rapid fire, decent damage and huge ammo capacity in the magazine.
    4) You're arguing lore, lore ends where balance starts, you want weapon with more penetration, so pick one which got higher penetration stat, not all factions are equal here, power armor users are superior in that regard.
    5) Eldar skimmers have less health, all factions can put tanks on top of each other except for orks, it got zero tactical value and brings no advantage.
    6) Scorpion is NOT a stealth class, because he is NOT invisible. If you're aware of scorpions, you can find them extremely easy, if you rush in blindly, fixated on point and alone, you'll be stung.
    That's what is happening for the past 14 months if you have yet to notice.
  5. Canis Henji Arkhona Vanguard

    W
    Wich is why i mentioned the game was rushed out of the door

    They didnt finished but still, in my persoective, they still havent managed to fully address the problems related to the proportion of the game we playing or just not knowing how.
  6. Just gonna point out according to the ork codex, scarboys are actually tougher nobz. They're called that because they're literally so violent and covered in scars.
  7. Obbu Obbu Confessor

    Also remember that some (not all) of eldar classes have a lower toughness rating than your basic space marine, already. This means that they are less protected against small arms fire, like bolters.

    They have the same health, but take higher damage per hit, unless you're talking plasma or power weapons, which act to nullify the advantage given by toughness.

    Banshee/Dire Avenger/Hawk/Warlock are 80 toughness base.

    Fire Dragon/Dark Reaper/striking scorpion are 100 base.

    Space marines have 100 base.

    Generally: Eldar need to make use of some other perk to make up for their squishiness, whether it be banshee scream or simply dodging around with dire avenger.

    Orks have higher health (25% more), 100 toughness, but larger hitboxes.

    So, bear that in mind in your balance discussions.

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