Background Image

A question about power armour

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by The-Forge-Dragon, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    And I am sure that I earlier quoted Marc Gascogne saying that the same goes for the novels, explicitly in spite of their PoV.

    Is it possible you may just have misunderstood the editor you spoke to (possibly missing the difference between the major standards GW enforces, and details where they clearly allow artistic liberty)? I can point to multiple verifiable posts all saying differently:

    "Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
    -- Gav Thorpe, GW game designer / BL novelist

    "Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.
    Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths."

    -- Marc Gascogne, Black Library head editor

    "Games Workshop actively encourages that attitude - the idea of everyone coming to 40K and seeing something slightly different: the same thing from a different angle. An author can say Character X was on World Y in Year Z, and another author might contradict it in something else written several years later if he or she has a different idea. Choose which you prefer? Assume both are false sightings and Character X was nowhere near either world? It's your call. That's the point. There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP."
    -- Aaron Dembski-Bowden, Horus Heresy co-author

    "It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
    -- Andy Hoare, GW game designer / BL novelist

    Some of them may be more generalist (yet still important), but at the very least Marc Gascogne clearly dismisses the idea that point of view should somehow make novels more accurate. Technically speaking, you're even contradicting yourself, for when on one hand you say that codices can get away with being inaccurate due to historical revisionism, you cannot on the other hand say that novels must conform to codices and expect the outcome to be "truth".

    This is not about exploiting "gaps"; I have referenced very obvious contradictions where novels simply did not care what was said in a codex. You can't just ignore these points by pointing to Laurie J. Goulding when you're not even quoting him. Do you have any link to confirm your interpretation?

    I think you're moving the goal post here. The issue was one of organisational identity. The Culexus are not part of the Inquisition, and due to their nature as individual operatives (same as Inquisitors) they do not count as a force.

    And if you want to dodge a background question by pointing to mutable rules, fine. Let's just move on. It's not as if Citadel Journal #49 shows what an Ordo Hereticus Strike Force actually looks like...

    Yeah, that's my point. They could (should?) have -- or rather, Necrons (at least the automaton troops) and other machines could have a trait which says they are immune to "psychological damage".

    This actually was a thing in 2nd Edition for Servitors.

    Not at all important for balancing, of course, but it could have been a neat representation of how things work in the background.

    We are very much in agreement there, though I am willing to make some exceptions from the rule. The Sisters' "boob armour" is, by this point, just too iconic. I think if they had come up with it now, I would have opposed it on the grounds of catering to fanservice and cliché, but after 15 years of being exposed to this design, I just cannot picture them any other way. And at least there are multiple in-universe "excuses" to justify this appearance.

    In my personal opinion, I don't think Veridyan has any place in the Sisters' miniature line; given the monastic, ascetic and self-deprivating lifestyle, even characters of high rank would be very unlikely to have such a "flashy" appearance and commission a special set of high-heeled boots for their armour. If anything, to me this just screams Slaanesh infiltration.

    I think it is better to honour Blanche's art for what it is: an excellent mood piece, but not representative of how the armies look -- especially since Blanche's art here was an exception from the rule, for even though it was the cover of a codex, every single piece of artwork inside had them look far more "conservative".

    By the way, those are some very cool miniatures you posted/linked there! The ones from Victoria in particular look as if they could seamlessly be inserted into 40k as Cadians, Mordians and Praetorians, respectively. I'm kind of tempted now.

    Perhaps, though I'd still be worried about how they might end up looking.

    Some fans and even Black Library authors had cool ideas about what to add to the SoB as an army, from light Venator scout cars as 5-squad troop transports to a Sororitas Terminator-equivalent. I've even seen an SoB-converted Valkyrie once, imitating their appearance in Dawn of War. The Dominica-pattern drop pods from Andy Hoare's strike force article would also be cool.

    Oh well. After all these years, it's just much safer on an emotional level to not expect anything anymore.

    Interesting thought on the upgrade kit, by the way. They clearly and obviously share some aesthetics in design (though this once again reinforces my misgivings about these "SoB+1") that should allow easy conversion.
  2. You seem to be concentrating on a couple of lines from a section of my posts, instead of the entire section.

    Most of the time when a Novel contradicts a Codex or Rulebook they are usually printed at different times.
    So it can be right when it was published, yet at the time when the Codex or Rulebook is the current Edition it can be wrong.

    And I have provided at least one example to back this up.

    If you just look at the Codexes and Rulebooks together, you will find editions that will contradict other editions.
    So which ones are right?

    The most up to date ones are the most correct ones, with the older editions being correct as long as they don't contradict at least the most up to date versions.
    It's the same with the FW rulebooks and BL 40K novels.

    You could still feasibly use the last Squat Codex to build an army, but you'd have to adjust it to accomodate the most recent ruleset and stats.
    I did this years ago with the Rogue Trader era stats and rules for Custodes. (They were surprisingly easy to translate.)

    I've put what I've put because you said:
    "The Sisters of Battle used to be the go-to anti psyker army for the Imperium, reflected both in their background as witch hunters and occasional Black Ship wardens as well as the rules (Shield of Faith) or wargear (condemnor bolts) they had in some editions."

    I replied with:
    "The "go to" anti psyker force has always been Ordo Hereticus Inquisition with a Culexus Assassin.
    And you were just as likely to find such a team backed up by Inquisitional Stormtroopers, as you were by Sororitas."

    Where did I say that the Assassin was part of that Inquisition Ordo, or even part of the Inquisitor's retinue?

    Where did I say Culexus Assassins alone are the go-to anti psyker force.

    I didn't say either of those. I haven't moved the goal posts.
    I've read the Jaq Draco Trilogy, and both the Eisenhorn and Ravenor books, so I know that it is rare to have an Assassin assigned to an Inquisitor and that even then their loyalty is to their Clade first.
    Even in the background most hunts specifically for witches/psykers are under Ordo Hereticus control.
    You brought up the TT, and the background.

    There are stories of Arbite raids finding witches, Inquisitional Storm Troopers being sent after specific Witches.

    Yet when I think of Sororitas in the background and stories, I think of Daemonifuge (Ephrael Stern is so cool!) and a short story I read involving SoB and SM facing off against Nurgle forces, with an SM falling to Chaos and a Sister pursuing him for years until they have a showdown.
    Both of those have been Sororitas versus Chaos.

    Can you direct me to stories on Sororitas that are different?

    Yet that still supports one possible reason why SoS have better stats than Sororitas.

    Well the sculptor, a lady called Victoria, used to work for GW.
    I wish that GW would make IG like this.

    I have been collecting miniatures for a while with the idea of doing a mostly female Imperial Army force.
    I have RT era female troops and Adventurers, including one of the Sororitas prototypes they did. Female models GW made for games like Paranoia. I have a nice collection of Escher models, female guardswomen from the late nineties and early noughties like Warrior Woman from the Last Chancers.
    I recently picked up the fresh casts GW did of two of their female Inquisitors for this project, and am looking at some Vampire Counts models to convert.

    I've even been converting up a Techpriest/Enginseer for this.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I'm supplementing them with the original plastic Storm Troopers, and Chaos Cultists converted to Tech Guard Militia.
    If I had the money, I'd probably look to convert the current Scions Tempestus into women.

    But if they did them justice like they did with the Dark Eldar, it could be worth it.
  3. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    All of them. That's the point -- it's up to the reader to choose.

    "But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies."

    Well, perhaps not all of them; 1st Edition Rogue Trader is obviously in a different league. Gav Thorpe explains it well in the linked blogpost when he mentions how there are some few universal standards which Games Workshop enforces, such as the Emperor being a dead guy or Blood Angels wearing red armour. The more you go into detail, however, the more things are up to the individual author.

    Although Games Workshop themselves used to be quite consistent with their own material (codices, White Dwarf, Citadel Journal) in the era between 2nd and 5th/6th Edition. I assume many of the more recent changes can be attributed to the studio undergoing a sort of generational change as more and more of the "Old Guard" are leaving to be replaced with newer folks that bring new ideas, slowly altering consensus.

    The one example you mentioned - the Inquisition War trilogy - is probably a special case as GW removed an entire army from the product line, because they were literally ashamed of them. With an entire species not existing and not being mentioned in the main product line (the tabletop) anymore, it might make sense to rewrite instances where they appear for products that are still being sold in order not to confuse the reader. Or at least I assume this was what they must have been thinking at the time. (sidenote: interestingly, the 6E rulebook mentions squats as a type of sanctioned abhuman; it must be the first acknowledgement of squats in two decades)

    And I would dare you to find another example like it; to my knowledge it should be the only one. The big exception from the rules laid out by the people I quoted. Feel free to contribute any quotes to the contrary.

    I think we are getting bogged down by semantics here. Let's go back to the root of the issue: the identity of the Adepta Sororitas as an army. I maintain that an organisational focus on fighting witches says more about this one organisation, than a temporary mixture of assets drawn from all over the Imperium says about its individual parts. You can't just go and dismiss the SoS - another army - barging in on this role by pointing at individual operatives like the Culexus. That's an entirely different category.

    "These small, scattered bases often proved ideal for reacting to requests for assistance from the Ordo Hereticus, and so over time became independent of the Orders that had founded them, establishing their own traditions, doctrines, livery and titles. Though the original six Orders are by far the most numerous and active of the Orders Militant, the new Lesser Orders Militant, or Orders Minoris, became especially useful in the frequent purity sweeps and pogroms instituted by the Witch Hunters. [...]

    Thus the Sisters find themselves in the service of the Inquisition, performing purity sweeps through Imperial organisations, persecuting apostate clerics, challenging renegade Space Marine Chapters, guarding the most dangerous of the Ordo's prisoners and acting as wardens on the infamous Black Ships."


    -- 3E C:WH

    "The Daemonhunters tend towards going toe-to-toe with the diabolic, wielding their shiny Hammers of Daemonsmacking, and we opted to take the Witch Hunters the other way, moving them away from close combat and towards psychological warfare. To this end, we've removed such items as Terminator armour and power fists from the armoury of the Witch Hunter, and added all manner of scary psychic powers and toys that attack his enemies through Leadership-based psychological attacks. The upshot of this approach is that it gives the Adepta Sororitas a clearer role in the army, as the Canoness is the girl to call when settling things the old-fashioned way and close combat is the only way to deal with those pesky witch-related problems."

    "The Witch Hunters are the branch of the Inquisition tasked with rooting out heretics, mutants and - most importantly - witches from within the Imperium. Aided by their Chamber Militant, the zealous and uncompromising Adepta Sororitas, they purge the unclean and wicked from the Emperor's realm."

    "When it came to presenting the Sisters in the new codex, we decided to start by going way back to their roots. The description of the Adeptus Ministorum in Rogue Trader actually said an awful lot, and, thinking of the role we envisioned for the Ordo Hereticus, we were particularly struck by the following passage:

    'Every single day, squads of Battle Sisters descend upon unsuspecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrongdoers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of Battle Sisters travel out to warzones, to the fortress-monasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. No-one is save from their vigilance.'

    Pretty much the same as the Ordo Hereticus, eh? This gave us a basis for the character of the army - vengeful warrior-adepts tasked with enforcing the purity of other Imperial organisations."


    -- White Dwarf #292, codex design notes

    "Wielding the holy trinity of bolter, melta and flamer, the Sisters of Battle are renowned throughout the Imperium as the scourge of the traitor, the mutant and the witch."

    -- White Dwarf #293, Liber Sororitas

    As for why I brought up the TT, I thought it was conductive to the debate in that the Shield of Faith is representative of their innate ability to resist psykers. In my opinion, this is different to mentioning something like points cost -- or missing vehicles that so far appear only in the background. We can of course agree to not use any reference to rules; there are enough references to Battle Sisters having an increased resilience against psychic powers in the fluff, too.

    "Faith & Fire" by James Swallow. A pretty enjoyable read, I think!

    Except that a consistent application of this reason should harm allies as well, affecting the value of the unit. But yes.

    Absolutely.

    Come to think of it, the studio always seemed to have a bit of a hit-and-miss relationship when it came to even acknowledging the existence of women. On one hand, you had entire organisations such as the Sisterhood or House Escher, yet on the other there are zero female minis in IG boxes for regiments we know recruit both genders (as of now; back when Catachans were still metal they had a cool Not-Vasquez with a grenade launcher) and I cannot recall ever reading about a female soldier/officer in the many fluff snipperts and in-character messages.

    Of course it stands to reason it's just that human habit of considering one's own person as the default (see also "why is everyone so white"), but I think it's a good thing that some authors such as Aaron Dembski-Bowden have started to call it out and push for more variety. Even aside from inclusiveness, it's gotten so bad that it actively contradicts the background of some regiments such as the Cadians with their 100% recruitment rate.

    The 3E codex suggested Escher miniatures to model the Xenonian Free Companies, though -- that was pretty cool. For reasons already hinted at I'm not as active in the TT anymore, but I'm still playing FFG's RPG and wrote a fan-supplement for playing Xenonian troops in "Only War".

    Props for your collection, by the way! I still want to get into Necromunda one of these days, and had my eyes set on Escher as well. The upcoming video game will hopefully scratch that itch. :)
  4. I have repeatedly posted GW's party-line on this, as told to me by an Editor.
    And it's a way of looking at this that actually makes sense.

    Yet you won't acknowledge it.
    You seem only to pick out a line or two from my replies that supports your assertions when those lines can be part of a couple of paragraphs that refute them.

    I at least have the good manners not to do that. I may miss out sections in my replies, but only because I'm not addressing that.

    What you have posted from the writers is stuff I have heard before.
    Stuff like "There is no Canon."

    Yet the same people you post do use words like "Retcon" and "defunct" in reference to the background.
    Which would indicate some kind of structure of what is and what isn't current in 40K.

    If you have problems with that, why not address them instead of ignoring it.

    I do not dispute that the Sororitas perform these duties for the Ordo Hereticus.

    I dispute that this is their primary role, or that it makes them the 'De-facto' Witch-hunting force.

    I assert that their Primary role is as the military arm of the Ecclesiarchy. Protecting Shrine Worlds, escorting convoys of pilgrims, persecuting Apostates, and even facing off against Space Marine Chapters for the Ecclesiarchy.

    I also assert that the De-Facto Witch-Hunting force is primarily a Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor and Retinue, usually with a Culexus Assassin on detachment, and backed up by Inquisition Storm Troopers.
    Though the latter may be exchanged for Sororitas.

    Yes it is pretty much the same role as the Ordo Hereticus.
    But not exactly the same.

    Their task of enforcing the purity of other Imperial organisations includes hunting out Mutants in general, seeking out Traitors and Malcontents, plus they also screen for Witches.
    Witches are only one of four things they look for in their sweeps.

    Again you seem to be picking out a few points, not looking at the whole paragraph.

    Don't you mean....

    "Wielding the holy trinity of bolter, melta and flamer, the Sisters of Battle are renowned throughout the Imperium as the scourge of the traitor, the mutant and the witch."

    -- White Dwarf #293, Liber Sororitas

    The way you put it only picks out the 'Witch', when they are the scourge of more than that.

    I wasn't against you using the TT stuff in your arguments.

    I was aggreived that you accused me of "Moving the goal posts" when I did the same.

    I pointed out the weaknesses of the Shield Of Faith rule, especially in comparison to the similar rules of the Culexus and Sisters Of Silence, or in relation to the weaknesses of using a Sororitas force when compared to the Ordo Hereticus force I have suggested.

    Thank you!

    Are you familiar with Daemonifuge at all?

    I agree.
    But there's always a balance between rules and gameplay for such games.

    GW have spent decades to strike this balance whilst introducing new units, Factions, rules and background.
    And they haven't always been successful.

    Are you familiar with the Videogame Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine?

    In that game there was a named NPC character called 2nd Lieutenant Mira. A Cadian who was the most senior IG officer around after the higher-ups had all gotten wiped out.

    This is her:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Here with one of her troops.
    [​IMG]

    And her men.
    [​IMG]

    Notice something?
    There's very little difference between her and her men. And there would be even less if she wore a helmet.

    This is one of the things I have been hearing from GW staff and some members of the community; If you couldn't see their face, how would you tell which IG was male and which was female.

    Without doing the "Space Babe" on the female soldier, you probably couldn't with most IG regiments.

    That kinda led me to doing these. (Sorry for the poor picture quality.)
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
  5. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    I tend to "pick out a line or two" because I'm trying to trim down the conversation rather than turning every post into a wall of text. Both of us are capable of reading each other's post in entirety, so the quotes just serve as insertion points to illustrate where I have something to add. Anything I do not quote is something that would, by context, either be included in the part I did quote, or something that I do not have anything more to say about.

    If you consider this disrespectful, I can ditch the quotes entirely and simply preface the relevant sections with a short descriptor. Perhaps it will be easier to read that way, anyways.


    In regards to the supposed party-line you accuse me of ignoring, I think I have explicitly acknowledged it when I called out what I perceive to be a disconnect towards the quotes I have provided. I also offered one possible explanation, and have asked you for a direct, verifiable quote where this editor, in his own words, explains how the IP works, so we can confirm once and for all if this is an internal inconsistency within Games Workshop or if you may have misunderstood the editor.

    Concerning the use of "retcon", have you read any of the articles I linked in entirety, rather than just the quotes I posted? Both Gav Thorpe and Aaron Dembski-Bowden talk about the meaning of consistency in the franchise, which I've already referenced earlier as well. To reiterate: The structure you mention is the most basic facts of the IP, the things that Games Workshop seeks to enforce in every single publication -- yet the deeper you go into detail, the more you delve into the territory of artistic liberty. The threshold does not seem to be defined very clearly, which probably means one editor might greenlight something another would flag as a lore mistake.

    This is why, for example, Dan Abnett can get away with emotional servitors, or Sandy Mitchell can completely rewrite how the Schola Progenium works, even though codex fluff from both before and after the novel would clearly contradict these writers.

    I don't see the problem you are presuming here, aside from that Games Workshop should do a better job at explaining how the franchise works -- although in retrospect, I should add that this is a perspective I have developed after brooding over this topic for many years, and after reading and collecting a lot of statements from various people who worked on the IP.

    To quote from a reply from ADB:

    "Sort of. I mean, I see your point, but this is a preference thing, and not a failing in the IP. The IP works fine. The flaw is in the way canon is communicated, because it so rarely gets a mention. The flaw is in how people try to apply other licenses' attitudes to canon, then blame 40K for not making sense. Well, no, of course not. That's like assuming a tree is a banana tree, then saying it's wrong for having apples in its branches. The tree's fine. The expectation is what was wrong. The guy who sold the tree who never made it clear what kind of tree it was surely takes some of the blame, too."

    And further:

    "It's all true and none of it's true" means, at its core: 'There is no canon'. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."


    On the role of the Adepta Sororitas:

    No, of course hunting psykers is not their primary role; the Sisterhood serves in a wide variety of functions, all of them connected to the Creed in one way or another. It just so happens that the Creed's tenets on mutation and witchcraft and the Orders' focus on purity, together with an innate ability to resist psychic powers as well as their training and equipment in general make them an excellent asset for the Ordo Hereticus when it comes to purity sweeps or Black Ship guard duty.

    This was explicitly called out in the material I quoted, from their overlap in purpose to their usefulness in combat.

    In your assertion, not only do you assume that deployment of a Culexus Assassin would actually be some sort of standard in spite of their incredible rarity, you are placing the Battle Sisters on the same level as Storm Troopers, ignoring not only their much more suitable equipment but most notably their resistance to psychic corruption.

    I just don't know what else I could do but to repeatedly point out the above. If you don't see the problem I see in that statement, I suppose we have to agree to disagree.

    As for your response to my Liber Sororitas quote, I think the issue there is that going forward, the Sisters of Battle will only be known as the scourge of the traitor and the mutant, because a certain other army has become the source of the witch.

    @ Tabletop stuff: The Shield of Faith was never the point of contention. I was criticizing your argument about a Sisterhood detachment not being able to make use of the vehicles the Storm Troopers might bring to a game.

    --

    I know and love Daemonifuge! The part-CG art is pretty spectacular, apart from those black and white bits in the middle where they had transitioned into Warhammer Weekly. Definitely a great story, parts of which were even adopted by Games Workshop later on.

    Come to think of it, I believe I have read pretty much every story there is that has a Sororitas protagonist, including Daemonblood (you mentioned its plot earlier, iirc) and The Invitation.

    I keep hoping that James Swallow will write more about Miriya; right now he seems to be the only author interested in SoB narratives, and even though little bits and pieces in his novels would contradict codex details, he does a great job at giving Sororitas characters unique personalities without having them abandon the standards I'd expect. This is probably the biggest challenge for an author when it comes to writing Sisters, Space Marines or Commissars, as their protagonists are effectively brainwashed fanatics. It must be very difficult to hit the right balance between a boring "cardboard-cutout" and having the character appear "too human" just to make them more relatable to the reader, but I believe Swallow does it well.

    --

    And yeah, I've played the Space Marine videogame, too. :)

    Usually I steer clear of most Astartes games or stories, as past experiences made me perceive a tendency towards special-snowflake'ism or exaggerated bolter porn. Admittedly, this game delves into the latter as well, but it does so whilst still maintaining an atmosphere that just draws you in and delivers exciting gameplay to boot. I enjoyed it a lot and kept hoping it would some day receive a sequel (even though my penultimate wish would be more 40k games that let you play as something else for a change).

    Anyways, I certainly remember Mira. And it's true, when looking at soldiers in real life their gender can be easy to miss at a glance. Body proportions would still give it away (most female soldiers require a differently cut armour vest to prevent chafing at the hips), but you'd still have to look twice.

    The rightmost model on your photos almost reminds me of this:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Those still feel a bit exaggerated, but it looks cool enough to make me wish these would be included in Cadian boxes. And I guess I can see why some exaggeration on the proportions (hips, bust) might be necessary to distinguish helmeted troops. With the size of the miniatures, details could get lost easily if they were more muted.
  6. I am upset by this as taking a line or two out of a paragraph can remove those lines from their context.

    I have been in situations on this and other forums where someone has done that with even background material.
    In those situations I have read excerpted sentences they've posted, which seems to support a certain point of view or assumption, yet I know that the Paragraph or the material read as a whole does not support that point of view or assumption.

    I may leave out some of what you say in a reply, but I try to leave what I address in the wider context of the paragraph if not the section.
    That way I reduce the chance of it being taken out of context.

    Sorry, I forgot that the Search feature on TFE was now working.
    Try this.
    http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/ar/t920.htm
    Though it is a reference to "canon" in terms of the Horus Heresy, but does include a 40K example.

    If you take his example of the A-, B-, and C-canon and swapped the A- and B- definitions around you'd get a good idea of how 40K seems to be, at least from GW's perspective.

    Plus there's this one as well.
    http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/ar/t380.htm
    You also can see why it is confusing talking about 40K and the Horus Heresy in terms of canon, especially when they deliberately create contradictions.

    Yes I am assuming that you're going up against a reasonably high level of rogue Psyker, as that is what is usually required to deploy a specific force to deal with the situation.

    And that usually entails that it is done under Ordo Hereticus oversight.
    Now my main part of the Ordo Hereticus Anti-psyker force is actually the Inquisitor themself, as they are usually potent psykers in their own right and can 'Duel' with the enemy's Psyker.
    In their Retinue they can have Death Cult Assassins, Marksmen, Arco-Flagellants, etc.

    But for such a level of threat they do usually have a representative from the Assassin Clades.
    Preferably Culexus, but just as easily one of the others; Vindicare, Calidus, etc.

    Anything smaller usually involves Kill Teams, and would most likely still be Inquisitorial ones.


    If you were dealing with just low level witches, then they could be as easily caught by an Arbite Sweep as a Sororitas sweep, and would probably only need a squad or two rather than an entire force.
    It's just that Sororitas sweep the Departmento's and the Arbites sweep the rest of the populace.


    Now why I pick Storm Troopers over Sisters is for numerous reasons, including the fact there will be more of them available to the Inquisition than there would be Sororitas. In terms of resources and logistics, Storm Troopers are easier to deploy and support in the field, plus they have a good range of vehicles they bring to the fight, especially the Valkyrie.
    And the Valkyrie does lend itself to rapid deployments or Snatch-&-Grab missions.

    There is also the fact that it would be easier to have a Storm Trooper mind-scrubbed than a Sororitas, due to training, conditioning, re-training afterwards, and the fact having a Storm Trooper command upset over it would not be as difficult as having the Sororitas and Ecclesiarchy upset over it.

    As you can see it has very little to do with the Sororitas being better soldiers/warriors with better equipment per individual. It has to do with numbers, availability, logistics, etc.

    I think I missed the last arc of Daemonifuge as I was getting it through the Warhammer Weekly.
    The last I remember of Ephrael Stern, she was fighting in the arenas of Commorragh. Yet I know there was more after that.

    The model you refer to was a conversion of a Cadian plastic body based on an article I found.

    I had to remove the legs to shorten them, file down the creases to indicate thinner legs, and to reduce the boot size.
    The torso's belt was removed and the section of the torso right above it was filed to create a new belt.
    The arms had their creases filed like the legs, and the shoulder was scooped out a little to shorten them.

    The head was actually off a Daemonette, with the cap off a Cadian head, sculpted hair, and a gasmask to hide some of the daemonic features. If I were to do this again I'd buy some third-party female heads off somewhere like Statuesque miniatures.


    P.S. Have you seen this yet?
    [​IMG]

    Or the 'leaked' SoS rules that can have them gain 3 inches to their Psychic Abomination Aura for every additional SoS infantry unit in their formation.
    Even their Null Maiden Rhino gets the Aura so a squad can't be targetted by a psyker when onboard.
  7. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    Why would you assume that any trimmed quote intentionally removes lines from context to alter the discourse?

    I've certainly had this ("misquoting" background material) happen to me as well, which is why I have made it a personal rule to always specifically mention (or, if available, directly link) the source of a quote to allow others easy verification. In the case of this forum, however, all we need to do is scroll up. Both of us know what we posted, so even if someone were to misrepresent one another, it would be a silly and ultimately self-defeating act as the truth is just a mouseclick away, and uncovering the act would certainly diminish the offending poster's reputation.

    And if the misunderstanding of context is a simple accident, the full quote isn't going to help the author one bit either, as it would not alter their response.

    --

    Thanks for linking those TFE threads! This is quite an interesting development, as it shows a clear inconsistency within Games Workshop as an organisation. Laurie Goulding is explicitly contradicting a head editor and two game designers, and one of his own authors. Granted, Marc Gascogne's quote is old (he was replaced as head editor years ago) and might simply be outdated, possibly replaced by a newer philosophy, but ADB's reflects the position of someone who is actively writing novels for the franchise right now.

    I'm not sure who is wrong, but someone clearly is, and they need to sit down to sort this out.

    How well-versed are you in Black Library fiction? As per Laurie Goulding's statement, the novels should now be consistent with one another and the writers would be instructed to limit contradictions (contrary to how ADB still insists he is working). From the few books I have read in the past, I can safely say this wasn't the case. Novels frequently conflicted with one another as well as with codices published before and after them. Someone even coined the term "Abnettverse", and I'm sure I don't have to bring up that whole (admittedly exaggerated, imo) "multilaser" drama.

    At least from what I can see, reality seems to contradict Laurie Goulding's posts there. If we could get both him and ADB into a thread, I'd be curious about the results.

    On a sidenote, how can something be "canon" if two equally-weighted sources deliberately contradict one another? That's like saying 1+1=2 but 1+2=2 as well. Only one can be true (assuming he wasn't just referring to assumptions or in-character statements later revealed to be false/lies).

    --

    For the role of the Adepta Sororitas, I think we just have to end up agreeing to disagree. We're moving in circles here as you won't accept the (quoted!) responsibility and ability of the Sisters of Battle and I won't accept your definition of what constitutes a "standard strike force" -- especially as you seem to contradict yourself when on one hand you list the (admittedly GW-fluff-compliant) low numbers of the Sororitas as an argument for why Storm Troopers would make more sense, yet on the other insist on a Culexus Assassin tagging along as if they'd just have one hanging around in every single sector of space, waiting for an Inquisitor's call.

    And if you keep falling back onto that Valkyrie argument in the rules in spite of flyers being available to the Sisterhood as well in the background, I'm just going to point out that as per the most current rules, Storm Troopers do not even exist anymore in 7E Codex: Inquisition.

    --

    I really enjoyed the Daemonifuge ending. If you can, I'd definitely recommend getting your hand on the omnibus; I think Black Library has it listed as print on demand?

    Here is a little background article, by the way.

    --

    It makes sense that the SoS' aura also works when inside a vehicle; it is an area-of-effect inhibitor, after all. Unlike the SoB's Shield of Faith, which in the current edition weirdly seems to protect their tanks as well rather than just the driver (another reason for why I prefer their 3E rules).

    I also still think an implementation consistent with how Null fields work for the Culexus (and have worked for decades) would make for a more interesting gameplay, in that it would introduce a drawback that players might have to consider when fielding this army among allies.

    And yeah, I've seen the Custodes as well. The other army whose presence I just can't "get". 40k seems to move ever more into the territory of special snowflakes wearing gilded armour; it's just not the sort of battles/scenes I got into the franchise for. But this is why, after the Custodes and the SoS, and now Roboute Guilliman's revival, I also have no problem anticipating the arrival of the rumoured Guillimarines when years ago I would have dismissed it as crazy talk. ;)

    Props for the conversion work, by the way! It's a really impressive job I kind of envy you for. I barely managed detail painting.
  8. I always try to do the book and page number so people can look it up and read the full thing.

    Laurie started out as a Submissions editor, but was given an opportunity and proved he could be more.
    Plus since he was a HH Fanboy they him gave that.

    If you read the original novels published in the old, Legacy-size paperbacks then you will find lots of inconsistencies.
    Laurie edited all of these into a more cohesive timeline, correcting errors and updating changed details before they were published in Hardback and Trade Paperback.
    He worked closely with Alan Merrett on working out the overall story arc, he commissioned the actual stories and worked closely with the authors on their stories.
    Pre-2012/2013 you can find these large inconsistencies in the HH novels, since then there's been very few thanks to Laurie.

    He was also the liaison between BL and FW when FW were creating their HH rulebooks.
    And an author for GW in his own right.

    As Laurie pointed out most people have been misinterpreting what was meant when Alan Merrett said 'There is no canon in 40k', including the Authors.

    About the deliberate contradictions, that was part of certain HH stories and sometimes it was to portray the strangeness of the Warp (like arriving at your destination before you left your departure point), other times it was for some great payoff later that could include the reveal of a traitor or some other revelation that would impact stories, or to create mysteries for the reader that would solved in a later book.

    Okay.
    There's maybe a million Sororitas at most, though more likely hundreds of Thousands. I say that as I don't think they are as numerous as Astartes.

    There are thousands to tens of thousands of Storm Trooper Regiments, each with hundreds of troops. I'm being conservative here, as though there is a billion human worlds, with most raising Regiments of Astra Militarum, I don't know how many actually raise Scions Tempestus Regiments, or how many of those become dedicated to Inquisitorial organisations.

    As for the Assassin Temples, each will easily have hundreds, possibly thousands of active operatives, and there are four main Clades/Temples and at least two more besides (Calidus, Vindicare, Culexus, and Eversor, plus at least Venenum and Vanus).

    So in a force like we've been speaking of you can have from a couple of squads to a full company of either Storm Troopers (1/30,000th to 1/150,000th) or Sororitas (1/1,000th to 1/5,000th), Inquisitorial command, and probably some form of Assassin (1/6,000th) with Culexus being the rarest.
    You are, based on the odds, about as likely to have Soroitas in such a force as you are to have an Assassin from one of the Clades, and if you could you would request a Culexus Assassin for fighting Rogue Psykers and Witches.
    Though you are more likely to have Storm Troopers than either Sororitas or an Assassin.

    This choices are reflected on the TT, with the most favourable usually being the most numerous.

    As for Valkyrie, I mention it not for the rules but because it is an air transport which can deploy troops quickly and fight in aerial combat. Something the Sororitas is currently and sadly lacking.

    I'm familiar with that as the later arc of Daemonifuge had Silas Hand dead, and an Outcast Eldar seeking her.

    I think GW is trying to move 40K and HH closer together, with allowing more and HH stuff into 40K.

    Previously the only place outside of HH you saw a Volkite was on a Mechanicum Dominus.
    Now there's one in the Tartaros Terminators set that can be used in 40K.

    I don't really get Custodes and SoS in 40K, fluff-wise at the moment.
    They should be at the Palace, at least until they're either besieged there or Guilliman convinces them (probably with his boot) to be more proactive.
  9. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    It's obvious Laurie Goulding was pushing for more consistency during his time as submissions and later commissioning editor. The question is: did he truly succeed in revolutionalizing three decades of publishing policy, against the resistance of the writers?

    Certainly, I have no choice but to acknowledge the obvious contradiction between statements, including the harrowing possibility that Goulding's statements are fact, but until I see a "second opinion" backing him up, I just can't believe such a monumental and (subjectively) awful change. From all I have seen, Black Library continues to suffer from bolter porn and plot armour, so if this is truly going to be the new "canon", it would utterly throw any semblance of balance between the factions out of the window.

    Take Blood of Asaheim, for example -- a novel from Q2 2013, so after this supposed change would have taken place. Am I truly to believe that it is "canon" that an entire convent of Battle Sisters cannot deal with a bunch of cultists led by three(!) CSM and have to rely on an under-strength squad of Grey Hunters to rescue them, to the point that a Space Wolf(!) is responsible for making a Canoness of the Adepta Sororitas believe in the Emperor again?

    Ridiculous. If this is the future of Wh40k, everyone who doesn't play Space Marines may as well just sell their army right now.

    ...

    No, that is too emotional a response. I suppose it could make sense, considering other changes the company is undergoing, including the greater focus on high-fantasy 30k and the continuous dwindling of more conventional sci-fi aesthetics or the stepmotherly treatment of the SoB. But I still hope to see these statements refuted.

    -----

    Your estimates on the number of Battle Sisters are somewhat similar to my own (I'm guessing around 100k-500k myself), although we do not actually have any idea how many Inquisitorial Storm Troopers there are. Just that their primary task is guarding Inquisitorial fortresses and Black Ships rather than accompanying individual Witch Hunters, who most often "travel light" anyways, with a small warband of trusted agents, then making use of local resources (such as a convent of the Orders Militant).

    In addition to their questionable numbers, they also merely serve in an auxiliary capacity "where the number of Adepta Sororitas may be insufficient" (3E C:WH p34). To me, this makes it clear where an Inquisitor's priorities would lie, which is consistent with the aforequoted codex design notes explicitly referring to the Sororitas as the martial counterpart to an Inquisitor's psychic powers.

    In your chosen setup, you are basically saying that the job is not actually important enough for an Inquisitor to call upon the Orders Militant (the preferred option, as pointed out above), but at the same time it's important enough to get a Culexus Assassin? Nope. I don't buy it.

    And right now, this choice is not reflected in the TT anymore anyways, since ISTs are no longer part of codex lists. Not that I would necessarily care for army list limitations when discussing fluff, but you brought it up.

    In regards to the Valkyrie, I have to ask again: What makes you assume the Sororitas are lacking a flyer? They have jump infantry trained for aerial drops and deep strike deployment, and it makes sense for an agency that also serves as internal police to have their own means of deployment rather than being dependent on the very organisations they are supposed to perform checks on. What's more, Andy Hoare's strike force army list even gave them drop pods, not to mention that Codex Imperialis mentions the two Primary Convents maintaining their own starship fleets.

    Although this should be a non-issue anyways. I assume it is certainly possible for smaller convents from the Minor Orders (which, due to their scattered nature, would form the primary resource an Inquisitor operating far from the Primary Convents could draw forces from) to not have their own strike craft, but an Inquisitor able to call upon an Adepta Sororitas kill team should have no problem securing aerial transportation for them. The Inquisitor's host would have to arrive in the area somehow, and there's no good reason why any shuttles should be limited to beachhead drop-offs rather than also performing combat insertion.

    "The Strike Forces of the Ordo Hereticus are composed of the elite of the Sisters of Battle. Led by an experienced Inquisitor they launch devastating surprise attacks against enemies of the Imperial Creed. Often the first sign an apostate Cardinal or heretic demagogue sees of the Strike Force is the vapor trails of their Drop Pods as they plummet from the sky bringing the Emperor's judgment to all who transgress His laws. [...]
    If conditions allow and the Imperial Navy is able to assist, the force may also include squads of Seraphim, whose jump packs allow them to deploy from low-flying Navy stratocraft."


    -- Citadel Journal #49 : Ordo Hereticus Strike Force

    -----

    Yes, I agree with that assessment in regards to GW closing the gap between 40k and 30k, for better or worse. It makes for a setting that feels rather ... alien compared to what I "grew up" with, though this is certainly in large part to my perceived lack of support for the armies I focused on. That being said, even the new Space Marines don't quite look like the Space Marines I used to know anymore.

    Brave New World, as they say.
  10. Why would what L.J. Goulding was doing for the Horus Heresy Novels, and solely for the Horus Heresy Novels, affect a 40K novel like 'The Blood of Asaheim'?

    He did this for the Horus Heresy, because that's what he became Editor for.

    The rest of 40K was under different Editors.
    And then there was that misstep when GW folded BL into its Publications department around 2015.

    You may want to read these Interviews .
    https://trackofwords.wordpress.com/2016/11/29/interview-with-laurie-goulding-part-one/
    https://trackofwords.wordpress.com/2016/12/02/interview-with-laurie-goulding-part-two/
    https://trackofwords.wordpress.com/...ry-there-and-back-again-with-laurie-goulding/
    https://trackofwords.wordpress.com/2017/03/12/there-and-back-again-with-laurie-goulding-part-two/

    The first part of the 'There and back again' interview that you may find interesting on what happened to BL around 2015.

    As for what he says about the 'Canon' of 40K, what makes you think he introduced it?
    And it's not, as I tried to say, based of GW's own view of what's canon. A view that seems to have been around about as long as BL and FW have been around.

    The only refutations I have heard on this subject have all come from hobbiests.
    I've not heard of anyone at BL or GW refuting them.

    That's not to say they wouldn't refute them. Just that to my knowledge they haven't.

    It is possible no one as asked them because like you they don't like it, yet unlike you are quite happy to ignore it.

    I based my statistics on what I know of these organisations, tending to err on the conservative side.

    As for the force construction I was basing it on statistical availability of having two squads of ten troops, whether Storm Troopers or Sororitas, and having an Assassin from one of the Temples/Clades.

    Statistically speaking, a Ordo hereticus force is more likely to have Strom Troopers available to them than Sororitas. Even if the pool of such Storm Troopers is shared by all three Ordo's.
    To a certain extent the background and the novel's support this, with more stories even in the Codexes of Inquisitorial Storm Troopers than of Sororitas working with the Inquisition.

    I also believe that based off statistics an Ordo Hereticus force is almost as likely to have an Imperial Assassin on working with them as they are two squads of Sororitas. Yet they would only have at most one-sixth of that chance of getting a Culexus.
    Assassin's working with Inquisitor's is very rare. Out of the three main Inquisitors with novels, Eisenhorn, Ravenor, and Draco, only Jaq Draco had a Clade Assassin in his retinue, and she was a Calidus.

    Yet as was pointed out to me, why take even Sisters of Silence for specifically dealing with enemy Psykers when you could have a Culexus?

    For me, when opposing even witches that require a force of Sororitas to deal with them I would want some form of Psyker to help them, namely an Inquisitor.
    And it seems to me that such a Psychic Inquisitor is the most effective part of any Anti-Psyker force, usually acting as the core of such forces both in the background and for the TT. Especially when you consider the armoury they have access to.

    ---

    As for Sororitas having aircraft, it is possible that like the SM Centurions they have had them since M35/M36 yet have not been mentioned as yet in any GW publication.
    If this is true, I hope they get some form of the Blackstar aircraft that the Deathwatch have. (I'd rather they have that than a Valkyrie or a Stormraven.)

    Most of the tech from HH are supposed to be Relics in 40K.
    Javelin Speeders, Jetbikes in general, and Fellblades are supposed to be so rare that most Chapters don't have them, or only have one example. And in the case of Jetbikes, only the Dark Angels are supposed to have one they field regularly.

    It's the same with hand weapons from the HH. Volkites are supposed to be really rare, along with other weapons, in 40K.
    Yet they are being migrated to 40K.

    It also seems to be only one way.
    As yet Grav weapons are rare in the HH when compared to 40K.
    In 40K you have Grav-Pistols, Grav-Combi-Weapons, Astartes-portable Grav-Cannons and Grav-Amps, yet in the HH the basic Grav-gun is available only for certain squads and Characters, and you can have a Grav-Cannon on a Rapier, a tank, or a Dreadnought.
    No pistol or combi-weapon version of the Grav, and definitely no Grav Amp, in HH.
    I'm kind of glad about that though.

Share This Page