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A question about power armour

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by The-Forge-Dragon, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    What's your source for Angron still "being a kid"? IA only mentions that all of this happened a few years before he linked up with the Emperor and assumed leadership of his Legion. Besides, when Corax or Ragnar matured much more quickly than a normal human being, I don't see why the same should not count for Angron.

    The way I see it, the Horus Heresy novels have beefed up just about everything, taking mythical accounts at face value rather than reading between the lines -- as the original GW authors probably intended when they included stuff like Ferrus Manus lifting an entire mountainrange and carrying across an ocean.

    But, this comes down to just how powerful we want to see the Primarchs, and as I said before I generally prefer an interpretation of the setting where the gap between its fighters is not as massive as Black Library sometimes makes it out to be. Also aligns better with the tabletop rules this way, considering stuff like the Apoc stats for Daemon Primarch Angron.

    Any hand-held weapon counts as small arms. That is the official definition.

    Not that I would object the fact that boltguns do more damage than lasguns, of course, but this is kind of important to keep in mind when we have fluff like the 2E C:AoD talking about just how much powered armour protects against "small arms fire".

    The fleet was still stranded with nowhere to go for whatever mighty thing you believe could have killed a demigod version of Dorne. Their warp drives were disabled; this is how the Imperials managed to catch up with them and recover Dorn's hand in the first place (it stands to reason it would have otherwise been taken as a trophy by whoever killed him).

    In TT rules, Strength ultimately means the damage of the weapon boosted by the physical power of its wearer. If a Primarch would be so strong even without such a weapon, they would not need them -- and Angron could have escaped prison on his own.

    And for a weapon "counted as", it's meaningless what it actually is. What matters is that regardless of what the Fists of Macragge actually are, they still behave like power fists, and that's the way their damage works.

    That is exactly my point. The SoS' rules did not exist before, so saying "their existence is justified because they're better at doing the same thing" is an explicitly bad argument for defending the creation of this army.

    By this logic, the existence of Guillimarines will be justified by them being better than standard Space Marines.

    This is not how Null Fields work. Consistency-wise, Sisters of Silence would have to be utterly blind towards psychic powers as said powers cannot manifest within the range of their ability in the first place. Literally any human being should be better at detecting psychic disturbances than them, on the simple basis that these phenomena actually have a chance of existing.

    You are correct by pointing out that this is still a difference between them and the SoB -- but that doesn't change that it is just a new rule the designer pulled out of their arse, with zero justification in the game's history. Games Workshop might just as well have given it to the SoB, but they are not the army they wish to promote.
  2. All the Primarchs went through a rapid Maturity.
    By five years old they were at least as tall as the average adult male human.

    It's been seen in various Flashbacks in the HH novels.
    Deliverance Lost comes to mind for this.

    Yet most portrayals of Primarchs in the HH novels do not show this OTT power you mention, unless they are also being powered by Chaos, or are a Perpetual.

    You're right, Boltguns are small arms.
    But your original mention of that scenario made it sound like he was dealing with opponents only armed with Las or Autoweapons, not the more likely Boltguns.

    A Chaos fleet stranded in space for a period of time.
    Enough time to transfer an incapacitated Dorn to a working ship and send him who-knows- where.
    Enough time for interested parties to appear and sneak off with his body, whether alive or dead.

    Some speculate that he's in Trazyn's collection, or is a prized specimen in the arena's of Commorragh. There's even a theory he returned to the Palace and remains there in disguise, near his father.
    With a sufficient gap between Dorn's assault and the subsequent attack from the rest of his Chapter, Dorn could have ended up just about anywhere in any number of states, including being dead.

    It's a gap that fans can exploit.

    Counts-as in this case means that on Calgar they act as Power Fists, but when Guilliman wore them during the Horus Heresy they acted as weapons that could take out a Contemptor Dreadnought with one blow.

    You seem to be saying that they are doing the same thing, but they aren't.
    Even if you take into account the Shield Of Faith, which actually sounds like a beefed up Deny The Witch, the SoS are actual Anti-Psykers more like the Culexis Assassins.

    SoS are not only immune to psychic powers but create an area of immunity, plus they also stop Psykers within range from charging up their warp charge and make it much harder for them to cast a power.
    Sororitas had a good deny the witch and were immune to minor psychic powers.

    That's not on the same level.
    And as I have said before, Acts of Faith work against any opponent. Not just the Psychic ones.

    Sororitas are generalist fighters, which considering they also pursue Heretics as well as Witches, fits their background.
    SoS are specialists geared for fighting Psykers, but can also fight Daemons.

    It's like comparing Deathwatch to Grey Knights.

    Have you ever played on TT against Grey Knights, or a properly equipped Farseer?
    Being able to add a detachment of SoS to an army like SM or IG when facing such an opposing army would be helpful, even if only as a bullet magnet.

    You wouldn't get the same effect with an allied detachment of Sororitas to the same armies against the same opponents.
  3. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    You mean during those failed escape attempts?

    The very existence of Perpetuals is what I'd consider OTT to begin with.

    When I said "Primarchs killing one another with much smaller weapons"?

    I suppose I could have been more specific, though I thought we would both be on the same level when imagining what sort of weapons Primarchs are running around with, or what weapons they used in the duels we know of. Either way I guess we cleared this one up at least.

    I suppose these are possible, if unlikely. I would even go as far as to say this is how Neo-GW will justify his eventual reappearance, now that they have started to bring back Primarchs into 40k. But I've always looked at the fluff employing Occham's Razor, meaning that I assume for the most likely and direct explanation to be the correct one.

    Not that it this is important for the original question, which was how vulnerable older fluff made the Primarchs appear. Which means that regardless of what may or may not have happened to the rest of Dorn, he was defeated and lost at least a hand whilst trying to storm a random cruiser's bridge.

    "Counts as" means they count as, i.e. behaves as X in the rules of the TT game. Nothing more and nothing less. Indeed, the 3E C:SM contains a technical schematic that flat out calls it a "servo-assisted power fist" in terms of fluff.

    40k fiction regularly exaggerated the capabilities of its protagonists -- this would be the case with Primarchs just as it happens with regular Space Marines.

    "Thankfully, most people understand the concept of dramatic license, an amusing little technique that involves exaggerating or ignoring facts, physical laws, and general plausability to keep things entertaining. Space Marines are embellished in fiction, where their heroism and invincibility are accentuated."

    - White Dwarf #300

    I guess we will know for sure once RM reacquires his Gauntlets and we'll get TT stats for comparison? ;)

    I am saying they are (or were) performing the same role. The Sisters of Battle used to be the go-to anti psyker army for the Imperium, reflected both in their background as witch hunters and occasional Black Ship wardens as well as the rules (Shield of Faith) or wargear (condemnor bolts) they had in some editions.

    Obviously they've been fighting other things as well, but let's be realistic: so will the Sisters of Silence. Their introduction just means that the SoB have now been robbed of the one thing they were specialized for. You said it yourself: if you expect to fight psykers, why would you now take Sororitas when you can take SoS? Anything the Battle Sisters can do, they can do better. Let's not pretend their truncated one-use Acts of Faith (comparing 6E to 3E) actually make up for the ridiculous and inexplicable difference in stats. Initiative 5? The Seraphim, the Orders Militant' supposed close combat specialists, don't even get to 4 -- to say nothing of the number of Attacks.

    To summarise, the Sisters of Silence have "stolen" the "Sister" label previously unique to the SoB, the Battle Sisters' rank titles and their anti-psyker background and abilities. And that's before we even get to the visual impression of coincidentally also being an all-female warrior order wearing boob-plate, bolters, flamethrowers and two-handed swords. So creative! /s

    Combined with the lack of support or oftentimes even acknowledgement for that other army, I hope my severe disappointment and strong negative bias towards the introduction of the SoS is at least somewhat understandable. Not that I do not feel a similar skepticism towards certain other new armies that were recently added to the game.

    Except that both have different specialisations, in which both are performing well.

    Well, all of this must sound incredibly negative. I must apologize; let's just say all of this is another reason for why I've kind of stopped bothering with the newest edition. I assume you feel differently, and I certainly won't tell you to change that. Different people, different preferences and perceptions.
  4. Deliverance Lost is about Corvus Corax and the history of the Raven Guard.
    It describes what he was like shortly after being "born" from his pod/artificial womb, and at subsequent ages.

    Primarch's had a rapid physical maturation and were pre-programmed with certain knowledge.

    They are in principal.
    Immortal humans that have been around for centuries to millennia.

    Oll Perrson was supposedly an Argonaut.

    Yet we accept that the Emperor is also an immortal who was born/created around 10,000 BC.

    But the portrayal of these Perpetuals has been interesting as most of the ones we've seen have been the most human of characters, cherishing the common and mundane whilst being fallible.
    I think they make a good contrast to the Emperor, who comes across as somewhat inhuman and divorced from humanity.

    Actually I was referencing your replies on Angron's failed escape attempts.

    You were kind of making it sound as though he was fully grown, in body and mind, and was facing off against a few slavers armed with weapons like Lasguns and Autoguns, when it was more likely he was facing off against hundreds if not thousands of well trained guards armed with Boltgun equivalents, maybe even Archaeotech weapons.

    GW likes to leave gaps in 40K to allow for the hobbiest to create their own take.
    It's one of the reasons behind the two Lost Legions.

    So having Dorn meeting an undetermined fate at that point is classic GW.
    He probably is dead, as far as GW is concerned. But with how they left it, they do still have the choice of bringing him back.

    You seem to be misunderstanding me.

    In 40K the Fists of Macragge have the rules of Power Fists.
    But there was HH rules for Guilliman using them, at least in Playtesting if not in Tempest. And these rules for the Fists of Macragge were more like the Hand of Dominion.

    You seem to be under the Impression that because Sororitas were in a Codex called Witch Hunters that means that they were first and foremost the Imperiums anti-psyker force.

    Except they were originally conceived as, and still are, the military arm of the Ecclesiarchy (and somewhat as the female equivalents of SM).
    GW then associated them with the Ordo Hereticus, the actual Heretic and Witch-Hunting organisation of the Imperium, so you could field a wider-range of army options including Psychic Inquisitors. And these army options include characters equipped with Condemnor Boltguns.

    The "go to" anti psyker force has always been Ordo Hereticus Inquisition with a Culexus Assassin.
    And you were just as likely to find such a team backed up by Inquisitional Stormtroopers, as you were by Sororitas.

    I haven't seen the current stats for Sororitas but I do have them from Codex: Witch Hunters.
    And comparing that Codexes Seraphim stats to SoS stats they are the same except for SoS having plus 1 to their Initiative, Attack, and Leadership stats.
    Considering their close association with the Emperor, how they are pariah's, and the fact they seem to be to Custodes what Sororitas are to SM, it would explain the differences.

    By the way, I thought a Sororitas Squad could attempt an Act of Faith once per turn as long as they had enough Faith to power it.

    You seemed to have preconceived ideas about this from already having made up your mind on it.

    I've been into 40K since 1988, but started migrating to 30K about a dozen years ago.
    My last 40K army was Dark Eldar, which I built during 6th Edition.
  5. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    Thanks for clarifying. That would just back up what I mentioned earlier in regards to Angron not being described as a child when fighting in these arenas, though.

    I think I have an easier time accepting that because that's how it has always been, from the moment I got into the franchise. The one thing that was different -- and now just one of the people who are different, if one were to go by the HH novels. Plus he has an explanation of sorts, with how his presence is but a psychic gestalt consciousness born from mass sacrifice.

    Sidenote: did the books ever explain the reason for why the Perpetuals are what they are?

    Although I have to add that the difference between mysticism and presentation as fact may also one of the three big reasons for why I never really questioned this acceptance. When the writers tell us that anything we read should not be considered 100% accurate, why do we have to assume the few bits that talk about the Emperor truly being born 10,000 BC need to be taken for granted? Already there are some interesting contradictions in how certain sources portray him when on one hand, we are told he was this big genius who created the Space Marines all by himself, when in another instance we are shown an Emperor who doesn't even know what zygotes are and has to have one of his scientists explain everything to him. A very interesting glimpse at an interpretation of the Imperium where modern propaganda just attributes to him what was in truth the work of his underlings.

    The third big reason is because the Emperor was more of a constant somewhere in the background rather than a person. He doesn't actually walk around in the time 40k takes place in; he is a dessicated husk shackled to a technological marvel that - or so we are told - keeps his soul partially anchored in realspace. As such, it doesn't matter what he may have been at some point in time. Very different from the possibility of actual Perpetuals showing up again and actively doing things, like it is rumored for Vulkan.

    Ah! Gotcha. Well, the source mentions hundreds, and they shared the duty of guarding all the gladiatorial fighters, not just Angron. Plus, their weapons were still not powerful enough to stop his escape once he actually had the support of the other gladiators, who were not Primarchs.

    Doesn't that make the gap between Primarchs and Humans seem considerably smaller?

    Leaving holes for players to fill is arguably standard practice with GW; it's the same reason they have opted for such a contradictory "canon" if we can even call it that way. Still, there is the matter how he actually lost his hand, or rather to whom.

    It is certainly possible that even though it was just a random warship there was actually another Primarch on the bridge, or an uber-powerful daemon, or the fight involved some sort of superweapon. In the absence of any such hints, I'm still going with Occham's Razor, but I can see why readers who start off with a much higher expectation towards Primarch abilities would come to different conclusions even when employing the same principle.

    Indeed I assumed you were referencing the novels.
    Still, the HH rules are written by Forgeworld, which is a different team from the core GW studio. Given the occasional discrepancies in fluff and rules between both teams, I don't think any comparison can be considered accurate or representative.

    Culexus Assassins aren't a "force", they are individual operatives.

    From the 3E Codex Witch Hunters:

    "While the Inquisition monitors every aspect of the Imperium as a whole, the prime concern of the Ordo Hereticus, or the Witch Hunters as its members are more commonly known, is the apprehension and judgement of the rogue psyker, the heretic and the mutant. Given that the stated purpose of the Adepta Sororitas and the newly formed Ordo Hereticus meshed so seamlessly, it did not long for the duties and hierarchy of both organisation to become part of the same holy purpose."

    "The main task of the Ordo Hereticus is the suppression of witches [...]"

    "Thus the Sisters find themselves in the service of the Inquisition, performing purity sweeps through Imperial organisations, persecuting apostate clerics, challenging renegade Space Marine Chapters, guarding the most dangerous of the Ordo's prisoners and acting as wardens on the infamous Black Ships."

    I think there is a very strong case to be made for the Witch Hunters, and by extension the Sisters of Battle, to have been the anti-psyker force ... until now that the SoS were invented. The Sororitas have, due to their fanatical adherence to the Imperial Creed, always had a very purity-oriented theme, to the point where even their earliest reference in the original 1E Rogue Trader game mentioned them performing purity sweeps and genetic testing to expose mutations, and the witch is the most-detested mutation in the entire Imperium.

    The WH Codex even had a bunch of anti-psyker narratives for games, and a Rogue Psyker enemy template. I also do not believe that the innate resistance against psyker abilities provided by the Shield of Faith is coincidence.

    3E C:WH Seraphim: WS 4, BS 4, S3, T3, W1, I4, A1, Ld9
    6E C:AS Seraphim: WS 4, BS 4, S3, T3, W1, I 3, A 1, Ld 8
    SoS Null Maiden: WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 5, A 2, Ld 10

    So one army gets nerfed shortly before a new model range sharing several prominent traits gets introduced with a way better statline. Hmmm.

    Being a Pariah has nothing to do with close combat capabilities or morale, and I am unaware of them being genetically enhanced as the Space Marines are (please correct me if I'm wrong here). Finally, any association with the Emperor would have to be psychic by nature, which would be incompatible with their innate ability to automatically block any kind of psychic interference.

    Battle Sisters are raised from infancy in the Schola Progenium to become warriors, tapping the entire Imperium in order to recruit girls who fulfil the stringent recruitment requirements (must be genetically pure, must not be too old). Yet, Pariahs should be even fewer than the Sororitas' candidates on the basis of how supremely rare this mutation is, and the SoS do not have a network like the Ecclesiarchy's Schola Progenium. Where do they get all of their members from, and what exactly do they teach them to become better than the very best of those humans raised to be warriors from infancy?

    Not anymore. Now each unit only gets one specific Act of Faith (rather than being able to choose from a table), and you can only use it once per game. I guess the most likely explanation for this change is that someone at Neo-GW felt it was too hard for people to keep track of Faith Points or something, though it ended up costing versatility and viability.

    We both seem to have preconceived ideas here; they just don't mesh with one another's. I assume it's due to our differences in focus as well as what exactly drew us to 40k in the first place (i.e. general preferences; for example I do not find any sort of superhero story very interesting, but they are very popular in contemporary cinema and it feels like Neo-GW is trying to capitalize on this notion, or possibly just has new designers who like the genre).

    I only came to 40k at around 3rd Edition, but have since collected a bunch of older fluff to get a better grasp on the background of the topics that interested me most. Whilst you were migrating to 30k, I slowly seem to have lost a feeling of belonging as the franchise stopped catering to my interests and instead began to move away into a direction that doesn't meet the preferences which initially drew me to this game, both in terms of background as well as visual style.
  6. I was saying that aspects of his mind were childlike, and physically he could have been the equivalent of a teenager or a young man.
    Still not what we become familiar with as a full Primarch.

    The only one we know of is the newest Perpetual, the lady brought back to life by Erebus.
    There's probably more than one way to become a Perpetual because there seems to be different types of Perpetual.

    There's Vulkan who regenerates his body like Wolverine, there's John Grammaticus who seems to need help coming back, there are ones who are burnt to death in one place, yet later turn up nearby whole and alive. There's even the other known female Perpetual from Vengeful Spirit who dies on Molech yet materialises alive on a ship leaving the system.

    As for the Emperor, there has been some indication that he was around in the medieval age and may have been the source for the story of Saint George and the Dragon. That's from the novel Mechanicum.
    Yet the old background of him being created by Shaman's Ten Millennia before Christ has not been touched upon by the HH novels. Only that he could be 40 Millennia old in 30K.

    But the HH novels only touched on this history.

    All they say is that he was captured, forced to fight as a Gladiator after the Butcher's Nails were implanted, escaped with his fellow Gladiators, then fought back getting the appellation for him and his army of gladiators 'The Eaters of Cities', before their final battle at De'Shea, in one of the mountain ranges of the planet Nuceria.

    (Reminds me of the film Spartacus.)

    It is somewhat plausible, and the Youtube Series "If The Emperor Had A Text To Speach Device" has had fun with the concept.

    But personally, I think Dorn is dead.

    The FW HH rules are based of the GW ones, and use the BL version of the HEresy which itself is linked to the GW version.
    In the background the Fists of Macragge were around for the Heresy, and BL hasn't contradicted this so far.

    Culexis are not a force, but an Inquisitor and his retinue with a Culexus Assassin and backed up by Inquisitional troops is not only a force, but a very good Anti-Psyker force.

    The Sororitas are the Chambers Militant of the Ecclesiarchy, as they are not allowed to have an army of men.

    Every single day, squads of battle-sisters descend upon unsuspecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrong doers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of battle-sisters travel out to war-zones, to the fortress-monasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. (That's from RT by the way.)

    Those seconded to the Ordo Hereticus seek out the witch, the mutant, and the Heretic. They persecute Apostate Clerics, and oppose renegade Chapters of Astartes. They even act as Wardens on the Black Ships.

    Sisters of Silence by contrast, only pursue witches either to be taken on the Black Ships or to be eliminated as threats to the Imperium. They also commanded the Black Ships during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, using them as transports, as well as operate as wardens for their cargo.

    And that was my point.
    SoS are dedicated to battling Psykers with their abilities.
    Whilst Sororitas are dedicated to the fight against the Heretic and the Mutant, but need additional Inquisitional units with their wargear to actually become a proper Anti-Psyker force.

    Being a pariah gives makes them psychic blanks and untouchables with no presence in the warp. This unnaturalness effects those around them who can find it at least uncomfortable to be around them, if not disturbing. It has even led to Pariahs being murdered.
    It's hard to fight someone who you find disturbing, which would give them an Initiative boost. Add that to their close ties with the Cusodes and you get an idea why they have better stats.
    (But not better equipment or vehicles.)

    Sisters of Silence are about as genetically enhanced as Sororitas, yet a Sister of Battle is as good with a Boltgun as a Space Marine, which is better than a Storm Trooper.

    Battle Sisters are raised from a young age to be warriors, I say that as not all them seem to enter Schola Progenium as infants and end up as Sororitas. Even those raised from Infancy can end up as Commissars or Inquisitors instead of Sororitas.
    We do not know how those that become Sisters of Silence are recruited. It could be through the Schola Progenium, from birth after screening, or they could even be Vat-grown.

    All we do know is that they have extensive training and dedication.

    I am sorry to hear how Sisters have been nerfed. Yet they are overdue an update. (But so are the Orks.)
    If they were brought up to the current edition's standard they would probably at least get access to a Flyer (preferably a Corvus Blackstar, or similar), possibly extra troop units as well as tanks and vehicles.
  7. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    But what is your basis for that hypothesis? It all seems to come back to "he wasn't as strong as Black Library portrayed him", leaving aside the far more likely explanation that once again different authors had different ideas, as we know is the case all the time with different sources.

    They are "linked" to GW's own material the same way that all the Black Library novels are. Arguably that doesn't prevent them from contradicting it. Imperial Armour and Warzone Pandorax have different stats for the Marauder bomber, for example.

    Not as good as as the same Inquisitor with a Culexus Assassin backed up by a force of Sororitas.

    And the Inquisitor as well as the Assassin are only individuals. If you want to deploy entire squads of people shielded against the touch of the witch, there used to be only one organisation you'd go to.

    Well, every army can fight everything, and the SoS will see combat not just against witches. But with the innate ability they had in 3E, why would they need an Inquisitor to fight psykers, especially when they already do so without them in the background?

    Not to mention that one good thing the 6E update actually gave them was a psishock weapon. If GW truly wanted, they could have given some more tools like the SoS' grenades as well, or an Inquisitor's psyoccular. The fluff would certainly justify it, due to their link with the Ordo Hereticus and the kind of missions they deploy in.

    How exactly does that work against Necrons, Tyranids, Arco-Flagellants or a Culexus Assassin?

    That being said, I've checked the stats for some other units and Death Cultists get Initiative 6 and 2 Attacks whilst also missing genetic enhancements, so maybe Battle Sisters just aren't very good and the SoS receive more and/or better training to become better generalist fighters, combining the melee skills of a DC Assassin with the ranged skills of a Ratling sniper and the morale of Commissar Yarrick.

    Kinda snowflakey, but not impossible, I suppose? It's pretty much a habit for GW to make an army's new codex more powerful, anyways (see "codex creep"). Well, most armies'.

    Sidenote: The "from infancy" bit was not exaggeration but wording taken directly from codex fluff.

    Considering how their update for 6E turned out, I would not expect anything. I wouldn't even expect an update, considering they "just" got one, which is huge considering that over the course of 7 editions of the game, they had 4 codices, with only 1 of them being an actual physical SoB 'dex (3E was physical but shared with Inquisition, 5E was a White Dwarf list, and 6E is digital-only).

    Andy Hoare was pretty much the only one in the studio who actually championed them, and he is gone now. I can understand designers having little interest in writing an army they don't care about, it just sucks for the small subset of players who still hold on to them. Maybe the similarities between the SoS and the SoB are an attempt at getting SoB players to convert to an army Neo-GW has more interest in maintaining?

    PS: don't Orks actually have a 7E codex?
  8. Like I said before, that is based on how the other Primarchs have been portrayed.
    By the time they're fully grown, most Primarchs are in charge of their world.
    Even Konrad Curze held Nostromo in a grip of fear.

    Which IA and when was it published?
    Before or after Pandorax?

    I ask as FW publish rules and stats for a unit in an IA volume, then GW comes along with a different set of them. FW publish a new edition of that IA volume with the GW rules and stats.

    When it comes to 40K background GW and its studios take the lead, with everyone else following.

    When it comes to the Horus Heresy BL takes the lead.

    That's not what I've heard.
    Experience gamers have told me taking a Culexus is better than taking even an allied detachment of SoS.

    And the Sororitas could only protect themselves against Psykers, and then definitively only against weak Psychic attacks.
    If you took Frateris Militia, or a Preacher, they wouldn't get any protection.

    The Shield Of Faith is only a protective ability that works solely on Sororitas.
    A Librarian using his powers to cast Might of Heroes on himself, or other powers that boost his or his forces abilities would still work against Sororitas.
    A friendly Inquisitor wouldn't be able to use such abilites on the Sororitas when they had Shield Of Faith, but he could on Inquisitorial Troops and his Retinue.

    Shield Of Faith can't be used to protect nearby friendly units, nor does it hinder enemy Psykers using their powers to boost abilities.

    But the Culexus, and Sisters Of Silence special rule Psychic Abomination does.
    Plus the Culexus' Animus Speculum is designed to take out Psykers at 12".

    Pariah's are meant to be soulless and therefore unnerve that which has some form of soul, even Necrons.
    But Culexus had a rule called Soulless that reduced an opponents Initiative down to 7. That's because although SoS are Pariahs, Culexus are Pariahs+.
    I'm just glad there's no Black Pariah in the TT.

    Death Cultists kinda worship death and see delivering it as an expression of faith either for the Emperor or for Khorne (yes, there is such a thing as Khornate Death Cults). That could help explain their Initiative and attacks.

    My point stands, until we get it in print we cannot say what the SoS training is. It could be like the Sororitas, or it could be better.

    Just remember in December we got Canoness Veridyan, which sold out more than once (I've even got one).
    And that in January we got a new Saint Celestine and honour guard in plastic as part of the first Imperial Triumvirate.

    They've been testing the waters with these models, seeing if there's a demand for Sororitas models.
    And the SoS models could also be part of this for 40K.

    PS: The Orks have models that are easily over a decade old, and some that are older. The Ork Warbuggy and Big Guns are good examples.
  9. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    Most Primarchs also crashed on shit worlds where the most technologically advanced creation was the trebuchet, though, and/or which suffered from an unstable society to begin with.

    Opportunity undoubtedly played a huge role, too. Index Astartes features several instances of Primarchs being wounded by small arms, and being imprisoned and under armed guard would certainly make it that much harder to take action. I remain convinced that IA and the novels simply feature different takes on the Primarchs. As is to be expected, really, considering that they come from different authors.

    "My Lorgar isn’t Anthony Reynolds’s Lorgar. My Fabius Bile won’t be Jim Swallow’s Fabius Bile. My Logan Grimnar isn’t Bill King’s Logan Grimnar. And so on. I’m not bound by what they’ve done before, and they’re not bound by what I’ve done."

    -- Aaron Dembski-Bowden, Horus Heresy co-author

    Hum. Why do you assume so?

    GW's descriptions about Sororitas recruitment and regulations did not prevent Sandy Mitchell's Cain novels to take a piss on them or generally describe the Schola Progenium in a way that totally doesn't gel with earlier codex fluff. Color regulations in the official painting guide did not prevent Forge World from inventing an Order that is wearing blue. Artwork of the Elysian Drop Troops for the Armageddon campaign did not prevent Forge World from coming up with a completely different miniature design. Codex fluff on how servitors function did not prevent Dan Abnett from describing them as sentient individuals capable not only of independent thought but actually getting angry and snapping at their owners...

    Black Library cannot even agree on how tall Space Marines are, even though every single codex clearly says 7 feet.

    If the franchise would work as you say it would have a lot more consistency than just the most general basics. There are no "tiers" of canonicity as they exist in other IPs; when it comes to detail such as this, GW does not "take the lead" and dictate -- Marc Gascogne explicitly said the opposite. Instead, there is a constant back and forth between the various creators; it is not unheard of Games Workshop adopting something from Forge World or Black Library into its own army books as long as it actually fits the writers' idea, either. Just like everyone seems to enjoy a considerable degree of artistic license to ignore things.

    "To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong. [...]

    The same applies to transference from Black Library back into the gaming supplements. If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books. And beside, there simply isn’t enough room in those gaming books to include everything from the hundreds of novels – good, bad or indifferent as we each see them – so the decision must ultimately rest with the taste of individual readers and gamers."

    -- Gav Thorpe

    An example from Forge World would be the Repressor APC, first introduced in Imperial Armour, then later introduced with the 5E White Dwarf minidex. I assume there could be more examples somewhere if one were to look for them, but my personal focus/specialty is fairly limited (SoB, SM, IG).

    I said instead of the Storm Troopers, not instead of the Culexus. Culexus Assassins are superbly rare individuals, they are not a "force" you can deploy in numbers -- quite likely, you could not deploy them at all, as their skills are reserved for countering the most dangerous witches.

    We were talking armies, so pray tell -- before the invention/introduction of SoS, what sort of Imperial warrior would you have recruited either in addition or, if unavailable, instead of a Culexus Assassin when facing rogue psykers?

    You're right; the Culexus even had this ability ever since 2E. However, it affects not only opponents but allies as well, so if GW would actually be consistent here the SoS would have to lower the Ld of any allies in their vicinity, including those people you seek to protect from enemy psykers.

    And I still think an ability that supposedly works by affecting a Warp-powered "soul perception" should not work on machines, but this would be a flaw to be attributed to Oldschool-GW already rather than the new guys.

    Well, obviously it has to be better. With this statline, this newly invented army forms the new pinnacle of the human generalist warrior.

    My one solace is that I can't wait to see if the Guillimarines rumor is true, and what happens when GW will repeat the stat difference with them.

    This may sound ungrateful, but I do not consider Blanche's high-heels Sister (as much as I love Blanche's style elsewhere) or a Warp-fueled fake saint to be very conductive to the general look and feel of the Sisterhood as an army. And even if they were, people are asking for troops, because currently a single squad of Sisters costs twice as much as a squad of Space Marines. Hell, they cost twice as much as Valhallans, and those are metal as well.

    Good point about the Orks, though; I did not know they didn't get any newer models even though they got new books. The same could be said about the Battle Sisters, with their last miniatures - sans the horribly unrepresentative special characters - being launched with the 3E WH Codex.

    But truth be told, personally I consider new models to be a double-edged sword anyways: I like the models they have now, and looking at the over-greebled new Mechanicus or Tempestus designs, I would fear that any remake could end up not conforming to the look that people have grown to like. This may well be true for Orks as well, so I feel compelled to caution against wishing for something that may easily replace a design that is proven and works (like the Storm Troopers did). Any new minis might look better, but it's always a risk.

    On a sidenote, I recall Games Workshop issuing a statement that they'd consider printing the 6E codex as a proper book. Arguably this did not happen either, so they don't seem to be convinced the faction warrants much support. I'm actually surprised as to what exactly they hope to achieve with these new miniatures, but Celestine at least may be interesting to non-SoB players as well.

    Sometimes I'd really love to have an off-the-record chat with one of the GW people just to know what they're thinking. It feels like a game of bait-and-switch that has been going on for more than a decade.
  10. I'm sure I said earlier that the 40K view of HH, and that includes Index Astartes, was written from the point of view of Historians writing it down up to Ten Millennia later.
    After that long it will have been mythologised, with truth obscured by misinformation and pruning by the Inquisition.

    Yet the HH novels are written from the point of view of those who were there. Though that led to problems as the initial Legacy-sized paperback novels were all over the place in the timeline and contradicting each other.
    BL did put an Editor in charge who brought them into a more cohesive narrative, and they published the edited originals in Hardback and Trade-Paperback.

    You know that Editor I just mentioned......
    I know him, and it was things he said.
    You might even be able to find them old the defunct The Great Crusade forum, and in that community's current incarnation on The First Expedition forum.

    You have to understand, even though BL and FW are departments within the company that is GW, they have an independence that in some ways is like that of a subsiduary.

    So, as I pointed out before, if GW makes a significant change to the background of 40K, then both BL and FW need to accomodate that in their own prints and reprints.
    That doesn't mean they can't exploit gaps left by GW, just they can can't directly contradict it.

    But when it came to the Horus Heresy, BL saw an opportunity and GW let them have it and run with it. They literally put them in charge of it. And when FW wanted to make the HH ruleset and rulebooks, they collaborated with BL on it, and that HH Editor acted as Liaison.

    His name's Laurie J. Goulding by the way.

    If there's a gap in the Lore that can be exploited without directly contradicting GW publications, namely the current Codexes and the rulebooks, then BL and FW can exploit it.

    And I said, Culexus as part of an Anti-Psyker force.
    You'd need at least an Inquisitor and his retinue to even start getting game legal.

    And the reason you'd take Storm Troopers over Sororitas is you could take things like Valkyries and still be cost effective.
    Even by the time they printed the Witch Hunter Codex a Sororitas force was on its own was rather lacking in options.

    And if I couldn't take a Culexus, I'd still take an Inquisitor and Retinue as then you can give the Inquisitor Psychic abilities to duel the 'Witch', with him and his retinue also getting access to wargear like the Condemnor Boltgun and Psyocculum.

    Well Necrons are a bit iffy as it is questionable if they have a soul, or if they do how much there is.

    But it's one of those things where they put it in because of the background, yet have to let it work on things that it shouldn't because they're in the minority.
    I don't think the Culexus powers that work to lower everyone elses Initiative has a line where it says "Doesn't work on Necrons".

    Guillimarines look to be a web-manufactured rumour with little to no basis in reality.

    Part of it may be from a rumoured new variant of Power Armour.
    Supposedly Mk X, but if it's real it is more likely a new sub-variant of Mk VIII like Ultramarine Praetor armour was designated a sub-variant of Mk IV.

    In recent years I've taken a general dislike to the Bronze Bikini and Iron Bodice you see in Fantasy and Sci-Fi.

    I like Victoria miniatures take on the female Sci-Fi soldier, as they look like soldiers, are feminine, but aren't sexualised.




    So though I love John Blanche's Canoness artwork, and like the model, I don't really like that it is meant to be a leader of a force like the Sororitas.
    It should be in the same camp as Inquisitor Greyfax, a character of such high rank that they can get away with wearing something as highly impractical as Stilletto Heels on a Battlefield.

    I even kind of wish that Sororitas had a flavour of Dreamforge's Eisenkern Female Panzerjagers.
    I've even seen Dreamforge's Valkir nicely converted into Sororitas.

    It would be nice if they gave the Sororitas and some other forces an Overhaul like they did with the Dark Eldar.

    They would then move them all to plastic, not the metals or the Failcast of the past, and hopefully expand their roster of units.
    I do think that for the current Meta they'd need some form of aircraft, an adaptable heavy trooper unit, anti-tank units (maybe a Land Raider), and possibly some new Fast Attack units (imagine Sisters on Bikes!).

    I always thought they'd do Sororitas in Plastic and then FW would do an upgrade kit to turn them into SoS for HH.

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