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A question about power armour

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Discussions' started by The-Forge-Dragon, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    I remember those bits from Index Astartes, too ... I guess the BL writers just didn't pull off the HH as I would have expected based on those other sources. Just a question of different interpretations. If they had made it more gritty rather than pulling off all this Immortal Perpetual Superman stuff, my perception might have been more positive!

    As for the licensing bits, some of them are actually pretty decent deals, but others are watering down the IP and kind of taint it with lackluster quality.

    Already it generated quite a bit of ridicule:


    FWIW, I cannot see the logic behind Custodes as an army either. Rule of cool (popularity) trumped setting logic there, so maybe GW thinks they could just replicate the effect with another new product line that comes across as even more heroic and superior. It certainly seems to have worked well for them so far.
  2. I don't get this.

    The only Perpetuals you can call Supermen are Vulkan and the Emperor himself.

    Most of the others are just Psykers, not necessarily powerful ones either, though Ollianus isn't even that.
    And coming back from the dead isn't a pain-free or easy thing to do. Some even need help doing it.

    Plus John Grammaticus sacrifices his Perpetual-ness, and Ollianus knows he's going to his death.

    I've noticed that these digital licences have been hit and miss.

    Well they had to include Custodes for the Invasion of Prospero campaign, and the eventual Siege of Terra campaign, in the Horus Heresy rulebooks.

    And what with their moving basic units from Resin to Plastic to lower costs, Custodes seem apt for this.
    So if you're doing them in plastic, why restrict them to just HH and not allow them in 40K.

    Allowing them in 40K widens the customer base and increases the profit for GW.

    Which is all logical from a business point of view.
  3. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    It's the general shift of tone/atmosphere from a setting where Primarchs were vulnerable to weapons carried by random troopers, to one where where they survive taking shots from a Titan's primary weapon or lift machines of war weighing in excess of 400 tons, or the general concept of people being reborn again and again. Very different from the more down-to-earth depictions of the setting from earlier material.

    It's obviously a matter of personal preference, but the interpretation of the Horus Heresy comes across as if someone was taking clearly mythical accounts from sources like Index Astartes at face value rather than considering that, like in the real world, maybe it's just stuff made up by some guy or a story that was twisted into ridiculous levels of exaggeration over the centuries.

    Of course myths and exaggeration is still how we may perceive these novels, as per the very people who write them, but lately it feels as if the IP as a whole is "reorienting" itself towards them, leaving people like me behind. The ensuing disconnect is just a sacrifice that both I and GW have to make as a result of the latter's business decision and my own taste.

    It makes sense for attracting newer generations of gamers, or anyone who doesn't really bother with background inconsistencies, I suppose. Similar to their presumed reason for expanding and rewriting the Deathwatch. People who prefer a bit more consistency in the setting will be put off, but it may well be that Neo-GW does not consider this number to be relevant with all the recent changes.
  4. You mean the large plasmagun on a Warhound Titan?
    The one that nearly killed Angron?

    Primarchs are portrayed as Demigods, and are to Astartes what an Astarte is to a normal human.

    Add to that the power of the warp, like Lorgar was starting to channel at this same point, and you have someone that can do such things like lift up a Warhound Titan enough that it topples over catastrophically.

    I read Betrayer, and didn't feel it was being OTT in the portrayal of the Primarchs.

    The people behind the Horus Heresy were trying to take the Mythic accounts from these old sources and ground them in greater reality.

    The HH Editor for most of this was L.J. Goulding, who took the Wardianisms of the BA/Necron Bro-Fist and the GK carving a name in Mortarion's heart and made it more real with explanations of those events that actually make sense.

    For years many have thought there was something unsettling going on with 40K.
    From Matt Ward's questionable Codex writing to some subfactions getting reduced down to just slightly different flavours of the Vanilla version of the main Faction.

    Iron Hands becoming virtually Ultra's, most Imperial Guard becoming Cadians with a little variation, and so on and so forth.
    Then there was the perceived Codex-Creep, Formations, and "Deathstar"s.

    And with the advent of Age of Sigmar, there was a fear that GW would "Dumb-Down" 40K in a similar way.
    As such many gamers either migrated to other systems, or moved over to HH gaming as it was more stable.

    GW even copied the Lord Of War from HH gaming, but dropped the 25% army points limitation.

    Luckily there has been signs that the change of direction last year seems to be reversing that, with the older, smaller sub-factions like Harlequins and Genestealer Cults, the return of specialist gaming, and more.

    Hopefully the current course can reverse some more of the damage done in previous years, and take 40K in a better direction.

    It makes it easier for the hobbiest to add such models to their current force, if not start a new army of these models.

    Okay, so Custodes may not be the best fit for 40K, but when I saw Sisters of Silence I thought on how I'd seen small forces of Grey Knights and Eldar Farseers able to dominate Imperial armies. If done right SoS can help balance out battles against such Psychically powerful forces.
  5. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    The very same. I realize Black Library novels are full of plot-armour and have a tendency to "accentuate and embellish the heroism and invincibility of Space Marines", to quote from White Dwarf #300, but people surviving a direct hit from Titan-grade weaponry is too much for my suspension of disbelief. It doesn't gel with the depiction of Primarchs that I am used to from older studio material, it doesn't gel with Angron failing to escape human slavers, nor with Dorn dying during an ordinary boarding action, nor with the Primarchs in general being capable of killing one another with much smaller weapons.

    It is my interpretation too that Primarchs are to Astartes what Astartes are to normal men, but then again, an infantry plasma gun makes no difference between an Astartes or a normal human either. Except in some novels, I suppose.

    We should probably just agree to disagree on this, but I for one did not perceive this "greater reality"; the entire 30k setting (as portrayed in those settings) feels as if the writers have embraced the Horus Heresy as a sort of sci-fi version of the Hercules or Xena shows, with mighty gilded warriors competing in a game of author-one-upsmanship about who can survive the craziest fights. It's just not my cup of tea, but this is rooted in my favoritism for a more grounded, closer-to-codex version of Space Marines as well, rather than what is considered the norm for Black Library.

    All in all, to me the HH novels are to the original background what the movie "300" is to the ancient writings about the Battle of the Thermopylae.

    Looking at what actually became of the Necromunda re-launch, I'm inclined to say this direction is not for me, and it confirms a suspicion that has been building up ever since I noticed an increasing number of "retcons" in codex fluff over the past couple years. The new team at GW is a different kind of gamer catering to a different kind of gamer.

    It doesn't mean they may not be successful, but I doubt I'll be the only one they leave behind.

    Of course the setting already had an all-female Sisterhood of warriors geared and trained to fight psykers, but I suppose inserting an army that was fairly recently invented for a novel with zero presence elsewhere in the IP must have seemed like the better option to them.

    For what it's worth, I understand that the SoS are more popular than the SoB, probably because the SoS appeared in a rather popular novel series rather than this army whose very existence even GW itself frequently forgets about ever since Andy Hoare has left the studio.

  6. Angron was captured by slavers as a kid, did escape from them, and was proceeding to destroy their cities with an army of Gladiators.
    I can't remember a version of the background differing from that.

    Dorn dying in a boarding action was old fluff, really old RT era one. Over the years it was dialled back to the point where you question whether he died or not.

    An Astartes can survive being shot by an infantry Plasmagun, though not easily. I can't say the same for a Guardsman.

    But I accept we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

    The entire Shadow War: Armageddon thing is not Necromunda, though it does seem to be using the Necromunda rules.
    Think of it as more of a taster, or a way to get normal 40K into such a skirmish game without messing up Necromunda.

    I'd like to see the Sororitas return, and they may be testing the waters with the SoS.
    But there is a marked difference between the two.
  7. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    Both examples are from Index Astartes, which certainly is not RT-era fluff -- from 2001, to be more precise, and reprinted 2002-2004 in the same fashion as collection books.

    Angron made multiple escape attempts when he was already a successful gladiator -- I guess the Horus Heresy novels pursued a different version of events there as well, much like they suddenly introduced the idea of the Emperor being anti-religious (and de-spiritualising the AdMech so as to not make it too much of a plot hole that Big E smashes one cult but lets another prosper).

    It doesn't have the Necromunda title, but a GW press release "promised" a new Necromunda, and now we get this? How is it supposed to look?

    At this point, it would probably make more sense to just drop support for them entirely; they are at best keeping this army on life support and it's painful to watch. The SoS are displacing the SoB as witch hunters since they are doing the same job, just with (much) better rules, not to mention a completely new model line.

    Out of interest, what difference are you referring to, exactly? Obviously they have their own unique background etc, but they're both geared towards having an advantage over psykers. Or rather, they are supposed to be -- the current rules for the SoB are admittedly at best "flavor", compared to what they could do until the 5E minidex.
  8. I've checked my copies of Index Astartes.
    In the third volume is the World Eaters with Angron's story.

    "it is known that Angron was discovered by a slaver who chanced upon the bleeding figure of the Primarch, surrounded by scores of alien corpses,"

    "Angron had been grievously wounded, but was alive, and seeing all his wounds were to the fore, the slaver realised that Angron must be a formidable warrior."

    "Following another failed escape bid, Angron finally understood that he could not succeed alone."

    "Angron's followers turned on their guards, butchering them and fighting their way free. Against soldiers armed with guns their casualties were horrendous, but nearly two thousand managed to escape into the city,"

    Imperial fists are in the second volume.

    "Rogal Dorn managed to piece together three Companies to join the Cadian campaign, which he led himself. The Black Crusade threatened to envelop Cadia, and the Imperial Navy had failed to see the threat until it was too late."

    "The uneven battle could only end one way, but Rogal Dorn was determined to inflict every last grain of damage, whatever the cost. He made his final stand aboard the crippled Sword of Sacrilege, a Despoiler class Battleship that had been rammed by the last Imperial Fist Cruiser."

    "Even without their Primarch, the Imperial Fists were able to get to the right place at the right time. They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could fleeand recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holiest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine."

    Angron failed to escape slavers because he was grievously wounded, and found he could not escape the Gladiatorial Arenas alone, which is in IA.
    Dorn's arm was all that was recovered of him from the Battleship he had boarded, but did he die? Also from IA.

    Anything different must be from older background.

    GW did promise a return of Necromunda, just as they promised a return of Battlefleet Gothic, Blood Bowl and Adeptus Titanicus. We have Blood Bowl and we have Adpetus Titanicus in the works, so what makes you think we are not getting an actual Necromunda game?

    Plus this Shadow War: Armageddon is not a new Necromunda, at most it's a skirmish game that uses Necromunda's ruleset.

    The Sororitas has its acts of faith that work for themselves and against any opposing force. They also have Rhinos and their variants, including immolators, Jump-pack troops, and heavy support options. And let's not forget the Living Saints.

    Sisters of Silence have the Pariah gene, and have abilities that negate Psyker and Daemonic powers. They also have a special armoured transport, and squads that can be equipped with their executioner swords, boltguns, and/or flamers.

    The only thing these two actually have in common is that they are women in power armour that fight for the Imperium.
    The Sororitas currently have a wider number of vehicle and squad types, with a wider range of weapon options. Plus they have "Miracles" that can be effective against more than just Psykers and Daemons.
  9. Lynata Lynata Active Member

    Exactly. For a "demigod" whose kind is supposedly capable of surviving Titan-grade weapons and can lift several hundred tons, I would consider it surprisingly ... human ... to not be able to escape a gladiatorial arena.

    "After only a few months, Angron had gained a bloody reputation as a proud warrior of fearsome skill with a strong sense of martial honour. He killed hundreds of warriors, in single and multiple combats, but those who fought well, he spared. Angron was a firm favourite of the baying crowds, and while he appeared to relish the life of a gladiator, he was always plotting ways to escape his life of slavery. He was a troublesome slave, with an instinctive anti-authoritarian streak and several times attempted to break out of the arena's dungeons. The fighters were held under extremely heavy security, with hundreds of heavily armed guards constantly on duty, and every attempt met with failure."

    -- WD #263 & Index Astartes III

    This kind of vulnerability is entirely in line with other portrayals of the Primarchs in IA, from the small arms wounds Alpharius had suffered from the weapons of the bridge officers of Horus' cruiser when the two first met before the Heresy, to Dorn's eventual fate. Speaking of ...

    I suppose there is a possibility he may still be alive somehow, but considering that they found parts of his body, and that the ship was brought under control of the Imperial Fists, the only way would be a teleport into the Warp, Draigo-style.

    It should also be pointed out that this was a random battleship, that Dorn's squad was fighting on the bridge of the vessel, and that the Imperial Fist reinforcements that arrived a short time later succeeded where Dorn had failed, so whatever has caused him to part with his hand did not manage to stop the normal Space Marines that followed in his wake. I've drawn my conclusions accordingly, but even if he is somehow not dead, I don't think the bridge of a battleship is large enough to house a Titan or whatever is required in novels' version of the Horus Heresy to actually threaten a Primarch.

    Furthermore, the Primarchs do seem capable of killing one another just fine, too, using weapons far below the damage potential of a Titan. Guilliman's fists are even still carried into battle by the Ultramarines' Chapter Master, and they do not seem to be that special.

    Do you really think they will still do a Necromunda after shipping this? Necromunda is arguably a skirmish game as well; both games would compete with one another.

    The Sisters of Battle used to have abilities that negate Psyker and Daemonic powers as well, until a certain newer codex removed them in favour of the streamlined "+1 to Deny The Witch". Now they've introduced the SoS, which are pretty much SoB+1, doing the same job (indeed, their "Bane of Psykers" rule reads like an evolved version of the 3E Sisters' Shield of Faith) but with far better rules and retroactively granted special equipment -- although Battle Sisters have two-handed swords as well, and obviously they have boltguns and flamers too.

    Certainly feels like a replacement to me, especially if this other army hasn't gotten a proper physical codex in over a decade, not to mention the unusually high pricing or the availability of their models.

    And the SoS' rules don't even make any logical sense. How exactly does their locally limited Null field increase their accuracy when shooting at psykers far outside the range of their native ability? If they're just really good snipers, why doesn't it work against other enemies?
  10. No Primarch came out of their pod fully grown.
    So all that happened on Nuceria when Angron was growing up and still technically a kid for most of it, as well as wearing gladiatorial armour at best during most of his time on that planet.
    By the time Angron faces down that Warhound Titan he's wearing Primarch power armour, based on gladiator armour, and had been fighting in the Great Crusade for over half a century.

    They may haved beefed up his backstory, but not that much.

    And Boltguns are not small arms not even for a Primarch. Lasguns and autoguns are small arms for a Primarch.

    Except the rest of the Imperial Fists caught up to that Chaos Battleship sometime later, and I'm talking hours probably days not minutes here.

    And I say this as the Chaos Fleet in question was "in the midst of repairs".
    Not just beginning them.
    Not nearly, or actually finished.
    In the middle of repairing damage like that caused by the IF Cruiser ramming the Chaos Battleship in question.

    The fists on Macragge are counted as power fists in 40K because they are wielded by an Astartes. Notice the 'Counted-as' because they're not and use an archaeotech system to amplify the wearers strength, so on Guilliman they're like his Hand of Dominion.

    Yes I do.

    Because they said they'd do Necromunda, not a Necromunda style game.
    There's a want for Necromunda.
    There's a massive background for Necromunda.
    It can be expanded in new directions (Inquisitor 28).
    And if it doesn't appear, there will be a backlash.

    What Codex are these rules in?
    Because I've checked both the Codex SoB 2nd Ed. and the Witch Hunters Codex, with the closest thing they to what you describe being the Shield of Faith from the latter.

    That rule states that Force weapons lose their ability to Instant-kill them and count as power weapons. Psychic powers targeting any unit or character with the Adepta Sororitas special rule will only work on a D6 roll of 5+, and minor psychic powers have no effect on them at all.

    Sisters Of Silence are more proactive, affecting Psykers within 12" of them reducing their chances of using their warp-based powers, and automatically negates and nullifies all psychic powers used against them.
    Then there's ability to hit Psykers even at range by seeing through how these psykers can subtly warp the universe around them, using weapons specially designed or modified to counter Psychic abilities.

    So they're not the same.
    SoB had at best a watered down version of what the SoS now have.

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