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A note on NPE(Non Play environment).

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Delgear, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. Delgear Steam Early Access

    to sum up what brujah was trying to clarify i think hes saying once you and an opponent are engaged in melee .... the best dps option for his nearby friendly should be to engage in melee himself and over power you with numbers/flanking and backstabs. instead of the ideal strategy be to shoot you both to the downed state and res his friend, people will still do this for sure there is noobs everywhere ... but if the most efficient time wise strategy is to engage in melee yourself the good players will do so and the game will play more as intended.

    At present this is the case you can TTK your friend then the enemy before that enemy could potentially TTK your friend in most cases(ailment weapons are the exception). meaning from a game design angle you are rewarding the lowest skill denominator more (guy with his eyes closed and the full auto trigger down) more than the guy taking the most risk (melee or the engaged ranged character in the melee).

    This should be the most efficient way by game mechanics to help your friend in melee ::
    http://plays.tv/video/5801353fdb3cc1d613/backstab-2?from=user

    And this is what pistols should be for instead of being a melee weapon ::(ignore the shenanigans with the retical you can't do that anymore you used to be able to retap melee lock on to reorient your pistol real quick even if it wasn't a smart pistol, after each shot it would disengage though.)
    http://plays.tv/video/58013285d0d5c3b503/use-your-pistol-part-1?from=user


    I could be wrong ... its his idea ... but that is just how i came to interpret it.
    Brujah likes this.
  2. Delgear Steam Early Access

    @Oveur , @NoahWard
    Any chance you guys could take a look at this thread ?
  3. ghoul mondragon Recruit

    Melee is in bare bones for sure. Ranged is weird too. Look... I land a bloody headshot with my autocannon and the target shot back just like nothing happened, and talk about "suppression" while the bullets not even hit... what the f? Then you pick the combat knife and easily block a bloody chainsaw... I can imagine the newplayer OHyeeAAhhh I have a chainsaw and a jet-pack, then discover that a lame combat knife block your attacks and stuns as bonus. insta drop.

    I'm pretty sure that the companies behind this game is not interested on improvements just like DotA or LoL, working on "seasonal logic" as V1.0 is nothing like the gameplay we have today. They will prefer reinvent the wheel and "fix"/"improve" the mechanics in another exiting release to make sure you pay for that. If they make this game better, than the next game will be less exiting. :(
  4. Shiani Brujah Preacher

    Yeah, that's exactly what I'm going for. :)

    It's conceivable, of course, that there could be a better way to achieve this that I haven't thought of - I'm not omniscient - but I've got a pretty good imagination and can visualise how these sorts of changes are likely to work once implemented and I'm quite sure what I proposed would have the desired effect.
  5. Delgear Steam Early Access

    something similar was tried before in alpha and beta, they made it a little too strong and a lot of people are still salty about it ....it left a bad taste in their mouths. It is definitely a way that we "could" balance the problem without taking the opportunity for the ranged player to play back .....

    I really think we should in any system implemented really reward, or incentive ranged players to buy better CQC gear in order to have a better chance in CQC ... at present if you take out the dbash nerf there is not much reason to get a a better knife or pistol on a tac .... with save maybe the exceptions being the poison knife for chaos or the MC one for everyone else ....and there is no choices at all for devastator variants not even mostly bad choices. In my opinion the dbash duration never had anything to do with it it was WHAT YOU CAN DO in the dbash duration that was broken .... and to be honest it still is .... take a JPA or GA land a dbash and unload a mercury pattern pistol into someones dome/chaos has one/orks have slabs ..... it still ends the engagement in 1 rock paper scissors ....the fact that the EXACT issue everyone complains about is STILL in the game pretty much shows, the dbash duration on ranged variants was not the problem ... its the amount of ranged damage one can do DURING the dbash DURATION.

    Playing tac SHOULD feel like you have a pile of options and it hard to decide which ones to use ..... there should be a pile of gear you have to mull over in your loadout... and yeah tac has the most expansive list in the game but does it really though ? it actually on my opinion only has about 3 options, an omni-firearm good at all ranges(bolter/stalker/storm bolter), AV melta/bomb, higher pen option plasma.

    realistically tacs should have lots of options for loadouts and they shouldnt be overlapping with each other so much ::

    Knife/Sword/chainsword/powersword :: this loadout should be there for the capping Tac, im 100% ok with it sacrificing their bolter, and forcing them to pay and invest in pistols. i mean seriously though several chapters we have in game frequently deploy their tacs with better than combat knifes standard, DA have ceremonial swords that most of them have after they graduate from scout, Ultras have gladius, i dont even want to discuss space wolves/frost blades im surprised they don't have melee weapons on their melee weapons for tacs. when you get to the other races they are no different .... Orks have all manner of choppas and bashas on tier tac variants, chaos has Khorne ...., and the entire point of the dire avenger unit in the fluff/tabletop is that they will melee the hell out of you right back if you engage them in melee its their entire stych as a unit is that they counter attack into melee so well ... I get there is no animators so you cant add animations but i've time and again provided solutions to circumvent this as follows :: Tac :: load the GA animations and model and slap a tac shoulder on it ... done, CTaC :: same as Tac, DiAv :: Create better knife attachments called "Runes" that bring the knifes up to a level of the aforementioned weapon classes and let them cost the difference in LP to that weapon tier. Ork :: These guys already have animations that accommodate the bigger melee weapons as they have the lower tier choppa choices.

    Stalker should be long range, with a special "head shot multiplier" or "base damage bonus" if it has been scoped in on the same target long enough (like the LC but you can fire at any time for less damage bonus). Trying to balance this gun as a DMR in a game with long range accurate AC and ace dakka fire is not going to work .... its natural food source should be these guys so it will need to burst them down and then be bad at dps till you can find a new hidey hole. Just make it a sniper and stop mulling over its place in the game stalker magnum suck for all involved. shouldnt cost significantly more than a bolter maybe 50 lp.

    Bolter/Storm bolter :: Bolter should be midrange king on its factions and the storm bolter should be a higher damage higher recoil bolter that shoots 2 shells at the same time side by side(two reticals) that are very unlikely to strike the same target together unless the enemy is facing you and you shoot COM.

    Plasma rifle :: Halfway house from AI and AV should be the most "versatile" weapon for what it can damage effectively but not as optimal for AI or AV as a gun designed for that. make the charged shot the best DPS vs vehicles on the gun, and make it less usable in infantry encounters(longer charge or clunkier projectile). Honestly its snapfire dps seems ok right now. should cost more than a bolter at present they have the same dps if you have hampster hands, and with the changes you could help with AV some.

    Melta :: AV king on Tac ... it already is ... this weapon is supposed to double as a CQC weapon ... and it kinda actually does ... especially the FD version its probably ok right now.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    After this you can scale ranged damage down slightly or implement the CQC damage reduction bubble without fear .... if a tac wants to have a better chance in melee they sure can they just have to buy it.
    Brujah likes this.
  6. Delgear Steam Early Access

    Suppression or what you are really talking about "Pinning" which is caused by being in a suppression zone is actually supposed to work that way .... it works that way in real life too if there are so many bullets hitting everywhere around you its hard to set up and take a clear shot. The suppression on the HB is specifically designed to counter the AC because the AC has a much higher realistic DPS despite their paper dps being the same ...

    As to league and DotA i played and or play them both, and the effort they put into balance is quite a higher caliber than what is here .... sure they have imbalanced characters but both of them have over 100 semi unique characters ... could you imagine if EC had that many choose-able characters instead of classes .... in its present systems ? A great deal of there seasonal logic is 100% sound like when they reworked all the support items to let those players actually enjoy the experience ... theres a lot of parralels you could draw for the difference in design philosophy Riot actually cares if a player is engaged in the experience even if they are losing the encounter. They have play and counter play between almost every champion matchup in thier games .... sure you arent likely to win as TF vs Fizz in mid but theres alot you can do to mitigate Fizz's advantage, and try to keep him in a controllable advantage instead of gg boys pack it in .....

    In fact how Riot handles situations like ours i would say is a major determiner for why they are successful and we are not.
  7. ghoul mondragon Recruit

    I understand this "pinning" logic... I'm talking about take a heavy explosive bullet on the body (maybe on the helm) and keep the precision intact.. bloody lord, even the primitive (legendary) CounterStrike1.6 ya take shots and get some punishment on accuracy and movement speed... the bolts must hit like a truck but the guns seems work just like chicken heads - keep standing while the body shakes. Come on.. that's Unreal 4 not GameMaker.

    I suspect that Riot tweak some unbalances to keep the heroes and strategy on constant recycling and rotation among the characters as the playerbase struggle to find the new OP strategy on hero X and Y. Thats fucking smart imho... bring dead heroes to the "meta" and stuff without breaking the game... EC seems to balance some stuff only by changing pre-existent material... as the melta nerf vs AP: they could create a 3rd range. 3meters to unleash devastating damage as a good melta, but they just decided to decrease the overall damage and now the weapon suck... the best logical option to deal with melee: gone... But heeey lets give bolter a 60mag, scope, grip... and everybody SHOULD have a bolter.. for 3~4 years... bolter love... That guy with 50+ kills... he use a bolter and nothing else... just because is nearly impossible to accomplish this task with other gun overheating before the 2nd guy goes down... The next option is: Combibolter?! cmon! Same to the melee arsenal. Who cares about durability if you can dBash, flee and shoot vs a slow weapon? Only the power fist have some AV utility, and can one-hit. the slow weaponry is unreliable and expensive as bonus wtf. This game is stagnated, no remakes to bring the broken old stuff to the table and boltgun+chainsaw/sword meta is an formal cult: devs worshipping the status quo as Nurgle rot the game.
  8. Delgear Steam Early Access

    While the ac by lore, and when you logically think about it should also suppress or cause shake when you are hit ..... the AC can in many cases kill in 2 head shots, and it will most times deliver the second headshot before the person receiving the first has time after lag to react .... so if it also had these qualities it would be broken OP, if you don't believe me go back to just before 1.3 on the forums and check out the amount of threads complaining about the Ace Dakka because the ace dakka was basically an AC with suppression for a while.

    It was in my opinion a decent decision on their part to nerf it this way .... i would have preferred for them to instead fix its gun physics, and i actually got a chance to talk to the Chan on discord about their gun physics ... but they haven't fixed them and likely won't. If the AC, HB, SC, all followed correct gun physics they wouldn't need these nerfs because they would have an artificial TTK increase of the gun being pushed off silhouette to the right to contend with(shooters perspective) but instead we have setting the gun on a brace negating pretty much all recoil and not creating spread when it does so .... in fact reducing it which is backwards from reality, and when not braced we have primarily climbing recoil which makes no sense with the grips and body position the non-braced recoil would go down and to the right .... The force has to go somewhere, and it always takes the path of least resistance .... if you cant by leverage stop the gun from panning out ... it will ... if you are braced and your body is pressed on the gun so it cant shake much .... guess what the bullets gain spread .... that is how it works the force still goes somewhere ....Not so much in EC though.

    so all these weapons by design and real life implementation would fire in sweeping patterns left to right then you would pause and get the gun moving in the opposite direction and sweep right to left. Mechanically these guns should have a very hard time focusing a target unbraced .... Instead we have a weird back and forth bob and a climb to their recoil completely defying the leverage and allowing the recoil to go straight through the heart of COM. that is why we get weird nerfs to them like removing suppression, or lowering damage on a canon because for some reason we are ok with a canon firing laser precision down a straight line ..... and when it bumps from recoil we primarily bump it straight from COM to head ......

    but then again they linked spread and recoil to each bullet fired so the HB despite its lower spread and recoil actually has more spread and recoil / second if you take it into garrison and test it. THE AC/Ace dakka are also pretty bad NPE type weapons too ... if they didn't have suppression to counter them they would be ridiculous and actually have been in the game at times when suppression is weaker and out of meta. you wouldn't have as many problems with this if they fixed these issues. Its just another case of trying to use an NPE mechanic to counter another NPE mechanic instead of fixing the root cause. How engaging is it for the guy being suppressed ? I'm sure this was never considered .... it was only considered "how bad does it feel to get 2 pieced across the map with a sniper canon" and this solution required the least efort since it was already in game .... they just dialed up the suppression accumulation until the AC player can't play the game when suppressed ... beleive me i know it happens to me when i try to PC on Maggon from the tower there is always in clan stack matches(us included) someone just spraying HB or SC fire up there with no real intention of hitting you they just want to negate the entire tower as an option to flank.

    I agree with statement two i have been smacking that bee hive of "add more weapons and make the ones we have more diverse" for quite some time ..... they haven't taken the advice and here we are ....... I warned them about 1.3 too, and the dbash nerf ....... ive pretty much warned them about every pit they decided to walk into. It's getting old for me too. The point of this thread at its root is to try to advise them from making this poor game mechanical choice of making the dbash duration shorter stick around as long as the melee nerf has, it is just another time the same historical situation has come up im just hoping that maybe just maybe they will listen this time ... the game has precious few left to lose, and NPE situations will make people just walk right out and not look back .... they will snap keyboards, they will throw mice ... and the taste left in their mouth will leave them way to apprehensive to come back and try again later, and more likely to leave bad reviews calling the game unbalanced, or cheesy or insert common complaint here.

    and yeah if anyone thats a melee gets caught at range instantly dies, and if a melee sneaks up on you you instantly die might potentially be "Fair" its not necessarily "engaging" for both parties or a good game play experience.

    Take for instance the AC specifically since you asked about it ... imagine if the gun did 133 on a body shot and 266 to the head I haven't checked its EXACT numbers in a short bit so this example is just for experimentation ..... WIth proper gun physics on the way the AC is held the primary deflection angle is to the shooters right. now at present the way the physics work you could aim at their legs or even COM and the recoil would push you up their body and rhythmically back and forth but well within a distance you could hit them, you can pretty much ensure a good series of hits with the gun .... and way past the necessary TTK at 133 damage .... lets assume instead the gun works under more accurate gun physics, whereby if you fire with the gun stationary unbraced it takes the path of least resistance and you lead the target striking them on the left side on purpose anticipating the recoil .... in a side to side silhouette your target is thinner and less recoil is needed in order for the gun to "miss" on its own ... instead of present where when we hold down the mouse button and we can fight the recoil instead when you hold down the mouse button the guns aim becomes mostly locked and the UE4 engine draws the ray for your shot and the next ray for your next shot should you continue .... however because its a sideways silhouette you will pass off target after the second shot and pass off to the right, you will then have to mouse off the trigger create momentum left and then mouse on again. this process doesnt have to take long ... it can be fractions of a second ... and if you are head shotting that recoil should only allow for one headshot before it recoils off to the side .... and again we are talking about UNBRACED. you wouldnt need suppression as a mechanic to balance the AC, hell you could leave its damage high as long as 2 shots to the chest doesn't kill and one to the head doesn't kill ... The AC user still feels like they have a "Powerful" high caliber weapon, and they can dish out some serious damage down a row on a trench but focusing a target requires more skill than it used to.... you no longer have to have recoil artificially accelerate and get worse with each shot .... each shots recoil is enough ...because the guns caliber is high the spread is very low its still laser accurate for the first shot like a high caliber canon style weapon should be but it isn't an instant death sentence as the user will have to re aim a guaranteed at least 1 time unless the victim runs into the recoil stream to escape.
    When you brace the gun all you have to do is look for the path of least resistance which the way the guns are braced is UP in EC. Now you have 2 choices .... you can assume the leverage is not enough and all the recoil now deflects up, or you can assume leverage is enough and the random forces are instead applied to the ammunition. so either you have a stronger up recoil because all the both down and side vector recoil are now pointed up .... OR you could keep the recoil lower but touch up the spread. We'll never know the answer since we dont have HB,AC,etc. or space marines to test them and measure forces on the range .... the gun should be in a better overall accuracy place when braced but still have a notice able vector of recoil or show the gun vibrating heavily if you go with the spread style ....

    It is precisely this not being fixed that makes the suppression insane on HB necessary, and the recent damage nerfs to the AC and Ace .... Since the gun physics are treated more like an assault rifle on these weapons they don't actually cause much difficulty for their user to just "manage the recoil" with their mouse. So the weapons wind up more accurate than intended .... and if they just increase the recoil and spread they just cause it to be RNG whether you kill your opponent or not instead of doing accurate gun physics and making it more of a skill based encounter.
    Brujah likes this.
  9. Shiani Brujah Preacher

    TLDR; High-calibre, high-rate-of-fire weapons slung underarm should end up shooting the floor.

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