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A note on NPE(Non Play environment).

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Delgear, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. Delgear Steam Early Access

    OK, i want to bring something up because i have seen a lot of discussion on the following few topics ::
    ranged wins 100% of the time at ranged and melee should win 100% of the time in melee.
    Dbash should be shortened(people ok with the most recent patch).
    Knifes should get shredded in one clang with a power fist.
    etc.

    I get the reasons behind all these arguments and i can kinda understand why you might feel that way due to lore, or frustration with the games recent metagame. Can i please ask you if you are out there making suggestions to stop making suggestions like these .... im going to use an important point related to game design, NPE or non play environment or more modernly referred to as taking away agency from the player.

    If you played a game with no agency it would be called a movie ....

    now, what im saying is yeah there is an imbalance in the game, many people disagree with what that imbalance is and to what degree it exists and honestly in a game such as this there is always going to be SOME imbalance its just way too hard with the system they have made for themselves (damage curve, defensive stat values vs ranged stat values) for them to ever have a truly super balanced game .... it doesn't mean they shouldn't try and it doesn't mean where we are is a healthy space in comparison to where we could be but still imbalanced.

    All im asking is please stop making suggestions that prefer a NPE environment .... shortening the dbash window puts the ranged player in a NPE environment where his actions really have little or no impact on whether he wins or survives .. how fast melees especially JP units can get gunned down is pretty NPE too .... you want any solution you create to engage both players and have them both vested tuned in and excited about playing out the encounter ..... presently in the game this is not the case, walking aorund a corner to find a servo skull to the right of you and getting 2 peiced by a stalker, or instagibbed by a bolter or storm bolter is not fun .... Its not engaging for the melee player .... im not saying he should have an equal chance at such a range in such a situation but i feel he needs the opportunity to affect his destiny more than he does at present .... but in the same hand walking around a corner and meeting someone with a power sword as a ranged character is also a NPE environment that melee player can just spam quick at you until you die.

    Please take the approach of say saeritan, baron or myself, and if you are going to post a suggestion related to fixing melee take a second and ask yourself how rewarding an experience is that for BOTH players ENGAGED in the situation .... you should feel like even if you are outmatched you are in some way effecting the outcome and have an impact on your aggressor. It doesnt mean ranged should feel "equal" in melee, it doesn't mean melees should be able to kill from long range, but the xperience should probably be more "cat and mouse" like than it presently is instead of Truck vs cricket duct taped to tire.

    heres some bad NPE as an example watch after it clears out to a duel as one player is just chain stunned to death ;:

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epj_74tkeXg

    This is bad game design and bad game mechanics, League uses this game as a seasonal Joke ..... dbash rifle or pistol, is a main mechanic in our game and has been since 1.3 .... however instituting another NPE environment to curb that NPE environment is not an acceptable solution.

    If you look at baron, saeritans or my suggestions we are clearly trying to avoid this.

    Baron wants to impose a lock down and automatic switch to melee load out pieces if you perform or are struck by a melee attack ... and i could live with this solution for sure. my main concern against his is what about nearby players firing into the melee ? they will still just mow down friend and foe alike and then res their friend if they make it. TK should not be efficient ..... or a preferred strategy and this solution alone to me seems that it would continue to perpetuate this poor game play choice.

    I want to drop ranged damage very slowly and lightly over time, or if we want to speed up the pace of the game then instead increase melee animation speeds. However i much prefer not settting TTk's so low you are half dead before the average person can react .... i think slighly reducing DPS of ranged classes and outlyer pistols is probably the best solution. You HAVE to do it slowly.

    Some others have proposed a sort of "anti ranged defense" bonus once engaged in melee, and i have some concerns related to this but maybe its just leftover stress form alpha when we tried this and engaged melee lifestealers were practically immortal. at least this however somewhat addresses firing into melee and mowing down your friends too to win the day.
    Forj and Brujah like this.
  2. Shiani Brujah Preacher

    Yeah, pretty much. I like the idea of a Ranged damage reduction on meleeing characters purely because it forces the kinds of engagements we should be having. It shouldn't be so strong a reduction that two people shooting into melee should feel like they can't kill the guy, but it should prevent a single Ranged player from killing a Melee player before they can kill their target.
    Delgear likes this.
  3. Nyhilist Nyhilist Active Member


    by the way you put it it should like you are asking for free charging at ranged classes. Melee has to flank their is no just charge you straight up (unless you watching the ultra marine movie, those CSM XD). I don't think melee should have free damage reduction, maybe as a last resort if nothing else works as an option.
  4. Shiani Brujah Preacher

    You'll note I said "meleeing", not "melee". As in, everyone who's involved in melee gets the reduction, including the opponent.

    Edit: So in case I wasn't clear, the Melee character wouldn't receive any damage reduction when moving into melee range. Though I do believe the slower ground melee without stealth (i.e. ShieldlessBros, Ground Assaults, Slugga Boyz and Howling Banshees) should get some form of gap closing mechanism as an activated ability.
  5. Nyhilist Nyhilist Active Member


    I missed the -ing part......but I still stand with what i said. It would just encourage mindless charging cus especially of tunnel vision/new players. it would lower the quality of the game imo. Maybe a slight increase in armor regen for melee. to reward you if you can hold your own for a few with out taking damage gives a good shot at some extra armor if you roll and clang properly.
  6. Shiani Brujah Preacher

    Perhaps, but I don't think it would. What it's intended to do is encourage Ranged toons to switch to melee weapons when engaged in melee, since that's what they're supposed to do.
    Delgear likes this.
  7. Current obviously broken RPS mechanics are a given. Longer stun on Tac bash needed and fixing the broken state of fist ignoring RPS 95% of the time.

    Headshot damage x100% +30% self buff from Servo Skull + 6% banner + +CQC Barrel + AP rounds or + 60 round drum mag and melee having no ability to crit or "head shot" or no ability to self buff their own damage like Tacticals can to such an extreme versus active opponents that are fighting back is causing a lot of the TTK and dps imbalances between ranged vs melee. When each Bolter round can headshot and hit for 90 to 115 damage with a fully auto, 60 round mag and the base damage on a sword is 100 damage that's an imbalance of epic proportions.

    Add to that broken core mechanics(broken lunge and broken evade attacks) and the fact that axes and mauls speeds are too slow to be effective in our fast paced combat system.

    We dont need to reinvent the wheel, we simply need to address the obvious imbalances listed above and the lingering, broken melee mechanics and obsolete melee weapons that have been an issue since September of 2016.
  8. I don't see how the game would detect the difference between an actual melee fight and say, just swinging randomly to get damage reductions.
  9. Shiani Brujah Preacher

    By proximity. The game knows when I should cause damage when my weapon swings through the space your toon occupies. It's pretty trivial to extend that out in a bubble to, say, 2 or 3 metres for the purposes of melee engagement. They have bubbles in the game already for XP boosts and standards from Squad Leaders (not to mention AoE spell effects), so the system is already in place.

    I'd have a double-requirement for melee though, in that you need to both be within the melee engagement bubble and you or your opponent(s) must have thrown a melee attack. That will give you a Ranged weapon damage reduction for a few seconds (actual amount of time to be tweaked after testing), ongoing and reset every time someone throws a swing whilst within melee engagement range.
    Delgear likes this.
  10. Eagle 11 Eagle_11 Well-Known Member

    Rather wouldnt have such an extra artificial mechanic as have already got elements like armor, toughness, damage mitigation.
    If melee classes happent to be found dying to ranged way easily then rather their gear or stats could get tweaked for increased values. In my experience ground assaults and sluggas are in a good spot durability wise as they can be built up to be really though, jumppackers could use an sleight boost to their base armor value. And then there is the Banshee class, the black sheep of ec melee which is an whole problem in itself due to non-existant gear options.

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