Hm, increase vertical / horizontal penalty while moving to stop ADAD-ing via momentum? Oh hell, yes! If you want to dance like on LSD, you should pay the price. Elder could have a lower penalty than orcs, while LSM and CSM are in between to match a little bit TT. A better weapon should be more accurate then a base weapon for sure (spread), but if "dance" you shouldn't be able to headshot players easily.

Agree. There is a cover system in place. No need for weird dances that make everyone feel uncomfortable.
I get that Eldar need a bit of dodginess, so maybe they can keep it to some extent. But noone else really needs it, right?

Certainly not ADAD spam. Eldar included for sure. Eldar get headshot bonus with the trade-off needing to stand still, even briefly, to aim to get it.

Maybe a better way of describing it is, an Eldar moving, is NOT an Eldar shooting. An Eldar shooting is an Eldar NOT moving.

An Ork is always moving (closer) and shooting, cus datz where da fighting iz! I think their movement penalty is far too strong and their shoulder aiming is too accurate. Ork Shootas aren't encouraged to get into the fight with the rest of the Boyz like they should be, nor do I see as much of a wall of Dakka like I used to.

SMs can hip fire like a SB OR they can retain their headshot damage like a Stalker. I liked @Deathwish suggestion of having headshot damage only apply when you're scoped in, this you need a scoped weapon, zoomed in. That's mostly a fair consession so long as moving while scoped has a stiff penalty. This is the exact delema that the TLSC and ASC has. And again it's a pretty tough go either way since Avengers need that headshot bonus in order to be effective at all.

What counter argument do you need ? Y ou are trying to remove headshot for everyone besides eldar ! It's a stupid idea , what does lsm/csm/orks gain in that ? To need twice the bullets to kill an eldar? you want the eldar to be more tanky than an ork ? wtf

Edit : who wants headshot to be removed? you want the low skill celling down into the ground ? you want to promote people to shoot at the ennemy's body instead of head ? what about skill? it's so stupid that i can't understand how you can think it's a good idea , eldar are the weaker race but they are not so far away from the others , that hs thingy is bs

Edit:

And you forgot the worst HEADSHOT DAMAGE REDUCTION 40%
And all the talk saying that hipfire with shuriken weapon doesnt work is bs... like really big bs , if you want to give some new toys to your race , the best is to tell the truth and not lie , Shuriken weapons are the best for adad due to high fire rate good damage good accuracy and little hit box+speed for a good adad spam

R.O.F.L.

I fail to see the leap in logic from taking off HS dmg from all weapons will make fighting eldar easier???
How in the world would that even work. If you HS eldar they die quicker if you remove HS dmg you'd need to drill 10 rounds into a DA for it to die, while the DA in question can shred you in 1 second flat with a TLASC. This is the single dumbest suggestion i've ever come across on these forums and Njord and Thraxus have been here for a while.

Woo, more lore/fluff arguments! Fuck yeah, I love conjecture. And, just to point out, An eldar only loses a slugfest with a Marine if the Marine has perfect aim, if the Eldar dodges shots or uses cover/corner peeking while firing, they will win in the aforementioned 0.6s.

Orks do not suffer the most from this to any extent, they are by far the best faction in-game in terms of class/weapon statistics and mechanics, they have some animation issues sure but a skilled team (see: FLOP) will wipe the floor with any other faction, DLB were not skilled players and Thrakka was especially awful. Not to mention he ragequit Orks to go and play Eldar out of a perception that they were far superior (they were not and still aren't).

Again, you use more bullshit arguments and justifications, "it's just unorky to aim it and rely on headshots", this is a pathetic, transparent excuse to try and limit the skill ceiling for a weapon, it has nothing to do with 40k fluff. Do you know why headshots were originally created?

Goldeneye created the concept of headshots in video games because it rewarded skill, it allowed a good player to defeat a bad player consistently by throwing more variables into the mix than simply tracking your target and other games over the years have this system because it allows a superb, A-tier player to overcome several players with peerless aim and yet you would see this become an Eldar trait, something only Eldar can make use of, and you try and cover this disgusting bias up with use of 40k fluff. I'm not going to pull any punches, I find that despicable - especially considering that you are or were in a focus group providing direct feedback to the developers.

I've already said this but I'll say it again, regardless of whatever bullshit justification you try to throw out, headshots are a skill mechanic and have nothing to do with representing the lethality of weapons or their 'fluff' appearance, they have everything to do with allowing GOOD PLAYERS to use their SKILL in order to overcome BAD PLAYERS. All you're doing here is encouraging boring, capped gameplay where CSM, LSM & ORKS can only use bodyshots and then of course you justify it with the following nonsense:

I mean, fucking really? - you realize that Relic's SM had headshots right and that only god-awful players relied on bodyshots?

The same situation that was true in Space Marine and almost every other game is true here - headshots allow you to defeat more opponents in a shorter timespan, this allows a good player to overcome groups. If you removed headshots from most LSM/CSM/ORK weapons you'd create a situation where they have to use grenades and AOE weapons to overcome groups as they would never be able to individually overcome a single Eldar that can aim.

Not to mention, you back up the justification that this would make the gameplay more consistent/easier for LSM since 'not everyone, especially the LSM, can do this' without acknowledging that you're not buffing LSM (nor should you) but instead you're limiting the skill-cap of the higher tier LSM players is coming off as malicious, a response to being repeatedly beaten down by better players and instead of seeking to improve, you seek to limit how well others can play.

I would be just as outraged if a BLOP member had come on these forums and suggested limiting Eldar to bodyshots only on account of their speed and their huge advantage when corner peeking due to this mobility, allowing them to turn around corners as enemies try and push around the corner and spam headshots for easy kills.

You do not balance a game to the whims of bad players - otherwise LSM would have had horrific buffs on account of their players being god-awful on average.

As for the rest of the post, it's the same pointless shit from before - your justifications are ridiculous and as are your ideas, and trying to appeal to me by stating "I'm actually very surprised you're against this, PROTEUS, it's an active nerf to the Eldar skill floor." insults me more than it appeals to me.

I despise encouraging bad play, overpowered weapons or bad mechanics, I don't give a shit what faction you play - everything should be balanced justly and I will fanatically defend and fight against idiots who spew nonsense that would be absolutely disastrous for the game. Everything you have said here is not only unnecessary (Eldar as a faction are fine, Fire Dragons only work vs pubs and Tempest Launchers aren't a problem if you can aim) but also totally unjustified and extremely transparent.

@Faeruin especially can attest to that as one of your "kin" - being that I spent over a month annihilating Njord & Thraxus' posts to the point that even the developers consider them a joke when it comes to balance suggestions.

Onto this second post of pure nonsense - so you say that the class that is LITERALLY A MARKSMAN should lose headshot damage - where's the consistency?

And you're fine with the twin linked avenger shuriken catapult being given headshots despite the fact that your reasoning for taking the headshots from the stormbolter is because it is an assault weapon and thus use in close range and would deal too much damage from headshots.

More hypocrisy, woo.
And, sorry to break the news to you, but Eldar are just glass cannons. Skill is a requirement for entry to higher tier player ranks, not just a specific faction.

Arguing that it helps fight the 'annoying race' is also a fucking joke - the only people complaining about this are bad players that can't aim, and nerfing the ability to land headshots limits higher skill players as I've already mentioned, garbage players will always exist and if anything, you'll have amazing players responding to these changes if they ever came out with the same hostility as they are now limited to be on-par with the other idiots on LSM. And suggesting that 'not everyone cares to do this' is a double edged blade.

Not everyone cares to defend rhinos, does that mean we need to nerf fire dragons so they no longer get extra damage on rear armour with their melta bombs or fusion gun?

Not everyone cares to run AV, does that mean we need to nerf all transports so that they can take damage from infantry weapons?

The answer to both of those is NO.

In regards to the weapons and suggestions. I mean, you've given away what tier of player you are by saying '4x scope' - no one needs anything above 2x. You do not use the scope for enhanced accuracy as much as spread resets and if you do use it for the enhanced accuracy, 4x is less accurate than 2x because when you are zoomed in, the recoil is amplified. As for the stalker bolter - making it a weapon that requires you to be stationary and scoped to use it accurately will basically just make it a shitty lascannon for infantry, I'd rather take an MC lascannon in almost every situation.

As for the rest of this, you're making sweeping balance changes to accommodate only skilled play on Eldar - which will not only piss off pub players of Eldar that cannot land headshots, but also make them the only competitive race.

I find it interesting that you're flying so far off the handle about this @ProteusVM.

I just see a whole lot of no's, without much alternative or anything above kneejerk thinking at all about the reasoning behind what I'm saying other than I'm a major figure in the Eldar faction, therefore must only have Eldar in my interests.

Consistently, I hear that Eldar are OP and, more importantly, they are unfun to play against. With thousands of hours registered and Max characters with tens of thousands of RTC on each faction earned by victorious campaigns, I believe I can still confidently say that Eldar are the only ones that should retain HS bonuses on their weapons the way they are, more or less.

Should various things change, including with the Eldar weapons themselves? Of course. I fully believe that the TLSC is in some sort of identity crisis where it's enjoying high body shot damage, high RoF, AND has Headshot damage, RIGHT NOW. That's a clear sign of not being able to decide what to do with the weapon. I'm.not at all stating that everything else is rigid, but with such passion in your posts and me on a phone it's difficult to explain everything the first round, or second or third apparently. Some of it is me just pitching an idea forward and expecting it to be shaped by the community.

For example I think @Deathwish had a good idea, that scoped weapons get headshot bonuses, while scoped. That in itself is pretty fair.

I would argue that Eldar Shuriken's face a sort of teeter totter between very unfortunate in their DPS, to godlike with their team supporting them. To get a sense of what I am talking about, try using a normal ASC your next 2 games against SMs of your choice. Try one match with only body shots as an Eldar. Then the next with headshots as best you can. If you're up for it, do it again against Orks.

Eldar DAs, with the ASC already follow this meta, they have to be relatively still while shooting effectively, must use cover, and cannot use ADAD spam and it feels balanced and rewarding while the TLSC kinda wrecks it, it can get away with breaking all of those, thus must be fixed. My opinion is to change it more in line with the ASC so it can still.follow their.meta of accurate Headshot seeking firepower, but doing it is very tricky because it's not currently following the rules I would like for Shuriken's and thus over performing, hence why it may have sounded like hypocrisy to you.

Now, let's move on to Orks and take the Big Shoota as an example now. This thing is inaccurate as fuck. It relies on sheer power and RoF to get the job done. And it does it well without really going for headshots at all.
Another example, the ZipShoota (+10 to Dakka and Fun) the two different types of main or Pistols, or the god forsaken 6 Shoota (which, it's salvation may be the addition of extra Headshot damage, who knows), or the various Rokkits, including the pokkit rocket don't at all rely on Headshot damage. They all cannot reliability get headshots no matter the skill level, nor should they have to handicap themselves by standing still and trying to aim weapons with shotgun sized spreads? So why even balance them around the possibility that they might roll lucky dice? Would it not be better for Orks to be rebalanced with only very specific weapons having headshot damage, and the rest simply being reliable and simple - like... Shotguns? In most cases this would just mean that most of their Dakka gets a just few ticks stronger overall, their experience gets simplified (their dizzying array of weapons is confusing to new players) and we can go back to focusing on what makes Orks, Orks, which is ludicrous stuff doing rediculous things, walls of Dakka and great melee. Not trying to make them marksmen with sorta accurate AK's.

Lastly, back to SMs. First, Autocannons don't need Headshot damage, most people would agree with this. Now that we have that out of the way, remember that Stalker Bolters are more mobile Autocannons with far less limitations, AND I think they need Headshot damage. The trade-off is the inability to.move and fire accurately. As with any rifle, in virtually any game, standing still, shouldering the weapon (aka zooming) even from a full sprint will cause the accuracy to come back very quickly. But that's the tradeoff for a weapon that's arguably as powerful as a heavy weapon. If you can't bring yourself to play Eldar, I would recommend you try what I said about the ASC with the Stalker. Play a whole game against CSM or Orks with just body shots, and another with headshots. You'll notice that your competitiveness is severely curbed. This is very similar to the current ASC experience.

Next game go with the Bolter. Bring a drum mag and a scope. Against SM/Orks, just do body shots against them from a distance needing a scope. Tell me the difference in how it feels, especially in this range you will be far more accurate than Orks and non scoped CSM, including their Autocannon, thus already enjoying a significant bonus over them, why do Bolters need an additional bonus of headshots on top of it?

And maybe absolutely no headshot damage isn't the best option either. It doesn't necessarily need to be drawn in absolutes, but I think most people would agree that Eldar have a lot of DPS in the wrong spots. Orks have trival headshots, and the Bolter probably has excessive Headshot damage considering its other stats.

*grabs a squig and pulls up a chair to sit back and watch the fireworks; as Eldar and Space Marines slaughter each other.*

*tests sharpness of choppa and arms shoota; just incase one of them gets fiesty and comes too close.*

Nothing new really. I can tell it's on principal rather than argument

No headshots = melee reign supreme / skill required to play the game at its full potential : Njord tier
So for you doubling the ttk of all faction against eldar is totally normal ?
All weapons ( besides rockits or shit like that) can headshot without problems , big shoota can you just need to "aim" you know ? Aim? The thing that you want all factions but your beloved eldar to get rid of
I am an allfaction/game player , not faction specific but i played this game as eldar for more than one year straight , my eldar character is the one i used the most and seen you spilling all that bs while you are one of the leaders of the eldar show me how my favorite faction has fallen so deep , rip skill may the shitters reign supreme